Installing breaker in a live panel - Electrician Talk - Professional Electrical Contractors Forum

Zog · 05-14-2009, 01:40 PM

Here is another accident for all those who think it is OK to install breakers in live panels to read, and read it twice if you need to

http://www.hss.energy.gov/csa/csp/ai...C_20041011.pdf

sparkyboys · 05-14-2009, 02:52 PM

first, i could not find the accident part.
second, if installing a new breaker at the switch gear it is always best to have shut down.

but if the breaker is in a feeder panel, there should be no problem doing it live, but you can always shut that one panel down.

InPhase277 · 05-14-2009, 04:45 PM

Accidents happen. If we followed the DoE's prescription, we'd never get any work done for filling out paper work. It isn't always as simple as shutting the whole thing down to install a breaker. If proper precautions are exercised, we can minimize the risks. But ours is a trade where there will never be 0 risk. The nanny-state that we are becoming is quite ridiculous. By similar reasoning, we'd never have went to the moon or broken the sound barrier. Mr. Edison and Mr. Tesla would have been arrested and charged.

Zog · 05-14-2009, 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by InPhase277

Accidents happen. If we followed the DoE's prescription, we'd never get any work done for filling out paper work.

So how many dead electricans is an "acceptable" number in your mind? How many severly burned?

william1978 · 05-14-2009, 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zog

So how many dead electricans is an "acceptable" number in your mind? How many severly burned?

0, Everyone goes home at the end of the day.

Jeff000 · 05-14-2009, 06:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zog

So how many dead electricans is an "acceptable" number in your mind? How many severly burned?

I bet more die driving to work then at work.

That really has nothing to do with anything, just making a point. Sometimes **** happens, you can reduce and control the risks but at the end of the day sometimes **** just happens. Most of the time it is preventable, but so is pretty much every workplace death/injury in any industry.
Working on live electrical devices is an occupational hazard of being an Electrician.

Bob Badger · 05-14-2009, 06:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff000

I bet more die driving to work then at work.

That really has nothing to do with anything, just making a point. Sometimes **** happens, you can reduce and control the risks but at the end of the day sometimes **** just happens.

The difference is for most of us there is no other way to get to work then to drive.

99.9% of the time the power can be shut off if we just forced the point.

Peter D · 05-14-2009, 06:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff000

Working on live electrical devices is an occupational hazard of being an Electrician.

Lineman, yes. Electricians, no. OSHA rules protect electricians from working live. Most of the time the rules are ignored, but they are still there nonetheless.

InPhase277 · 05-14-2009, 07:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zog

So how many dead electricans is an "acceptable" number in your mind? How many severly burned?

There is no acceptable number. But how risk averse must we be before we don't even go outside? We are electricians, there is an inherent danger in the job we do. How many steel workers must die before we stop building skyscrapers? How many fingers must be lost before we ban table saws?

nick · 05-14-2009, 07:44 PM

well http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tzga6qAaBA

Bob Badger · 05-14-2009, 07:54 PM

All the examples given

Going to the moon.
Working on high steel.
Cutting wood.

All them have to be done for one reason or another.

If we decide to go to the moon we can not bring it here.
We can't bring high steel down to the ground
We can't cut wood with a wet noodle.

But we can shut the power off to a panel before installing a breaker. Of course our job has risks but many of the risks can easily be avoided.

Jeff000 · 05-14-2009, 08:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter D

Lineman, yes. Electricians, no. OSHA rules protect electricians from working live. Most of the time the rules are ignored, but they are still there nonetheless.

Rules also state proper methods for working live when turning the power off isnt a viable option, like say when shutting the power off means a $500,000+ shut down.
Is that placing a value on the life of someone? kinda, but work smart and with proper procedures and you will walk home just like any other day.

I would also venture a guess that more electricians are injured/killed by 120/240 then any other voltage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob Badger

All the examples given

Going to the moon.
Working on high steel.
Cutting wood.

All them have to be done for one reason or another.

If we decide to go to the moon we can not bring it here.
We can't bring high steel down to the ground
We can't cut wood with a wet noodle.

But we can shut the power off to a panel before installing a breaker. Of course our job has risks but many of the risks can easily be avoided.

Many risks to anything can be easily avoided.
The moon, well those risks are extreme and going in you know death is a very real possibility. Same with a select few other occupations.

Steel workers, I doubt there are many workers injured or killed that couldn't be easily avoided by following the safety rules.
Same goes for cutting wood.

Bob Badger · 05-14-2009, 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff000

Rules also state proper methods for working live when turning the power off isnt a viable option, like say when shutting the power off means a $500,000+ shut down.

That is entirely untrue, no where in the OSHA rules will you find anything to back that up.

Quote:

I would also venture a guess that more electricians are injured/killed by 120/240 then any other voltage.

I would say no doubt about that as many more electricians work with those voltages.

Quote:

Steel workers, I doubt there are many workers injured or killed that couldn't be easily avoided by following the safety rules.
Same goes for cutting wood.

So your point here is if everyone followed the rules less people would be hurt?

Well thank you, that is what I have been saying.

Bob Badger · 05-14-2009, 08:28 PM

I will give you a head start, maybe you can show us where it says 'if it costs to much we can do it live'

Quote:

1910.333(a)(1)

"Deenergized parts." Live parts to which an employee may be exposed shall be deenergized before the employee works on or near them, unless the employer can demonstrate that deenergizing introduces additional or increased hazards or is infeasible due to equipment design or operational limitations. Live parts that operate at less than 50 volts to ground need not be deenergized if there will be no increased exposure to electrical burns or to explosion due to electric arcs.

Note 1: Examples of increased or additional hazards include interruption of life support equipment, deactivation of emergency alarm systems, shutdown of hazardous location ventilation equipment, or removal of illumination for an area.

Note 2: Examples of work that may be performed on or near energized circuit parts because of infeasibility due to equipment design or operational limitations include testing of electric circuits that can only be performed with the circuit energized and work on circuits that form an integral part of a continuous industrial process in a chemical plant that would otherwise need to be completely shut down in order to permit work on one circuit or piece of equipment.

Note 3: Work on or near deenergized parts is covered by paragraph (b) of this section.

And keep in mind, if you are the employer and find an excuse in the above to have your employees work hot and something does happen your excuse is going to have to both comfort the family of the injured and stand up when your getting sued.

But I doubt I will change anyones mind.

InPhase277 · 05-14-2009, 08:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob Badger

All the examples given

Going to the moon.
Working on high steel.
Cutting wood.

All them have to be done for one reason or another.

If we decide to go to the moon we can not bring it here.
We can't bring high steel down to the ground
We can't cut wood with a wet noodle.

But we can shut the power off to a panel before installing a breaker. Of course our job has risks but many of the risks can easily be avoided.

My point is that it is not always an option to turn off the power. Where it can be done easily, fine, let's do it. I'm not saying to never shut off the power. I'm saying there are times when it is unavoidable to work hot. We can have all the safety in the world, and we will still have situations arise where we just can't get around it.

In my opinion, it is unreasonable to think we can demand a complete shutdown of a building to change a breaker. Last year, a breaker failed feeding a transformer in an office building. All the 120 V loads were out on the first floor. I was called to fix the problem. This was a "fix it now" situation. Could I have told them to bite it, and wait til the weekend? Maybe, but they would just have called someone else. I couldn't very well shutdown the 1600 A main to change the breaker either. So I changed it live. Out and back in in 20 minutes. There was no way, or need, to wait 3 days for the weekend.

Bob Badger · 05-14-2009, 08:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by InPhase277

My point is that it is not always an option to turn off the power.

Of course there is, it might take planing and scheduling but darn few things can not be shut down.

Quote:

In my opinion, it is unreasonable to think we can demand a complete shutdown of a building to change a breaker

Why.

Why do you think the convenience of the buildings tenants outweighs your safety or any other electricians safety.

Quote:

Last year, a breaker failed feeding a transformer in an office building. All the 120 V loads were out on the first floor. I was called to fix the problem. This was a "fix it now" situation. Could I have told them to bite it, and wait til the weekend? Maybe, but they would just have called someone else. I couldn't very well shutdown the 1600 A main to change the breaker either. So I changed it live. Out and back in in 20 minutes.

To me that was an idiotic move, let them call someone else.

I was sent to a University to swap out a 200 amp breaker in a 4000 amp 480 volt panel board that was no more then 25' from a 13.8KV to 480 transformer supplying it. The fault current would be incredibly high. The company I work for had installed this breaker and the connection to the bus bar failed. When I got there the University in house electricians where there. They showed me what I was there to do. I said OK lets shut it down and I will do it. They said no way can't be shut down.

My apprentice and I stood 50' away and watched them do it, the company I work for supported my decision entirely.

Peter D · 05-14-2009, 08:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob Badger

To me that was an idiotic move, let them call someone else.

I was sent to a University to swap out a 200 amp breaker in a 4000 amp 480 volt panel board that was no more then 25' from a 13.8KV to 480 transformer supplying it. The fault current would be incredibly high. The company I work for had installed this breaker and the connection to the bus bar failed. When I got there the University in house electricians where there. They showed me what I was there to do. I said OK lets shut it down and I will do it. They said no way can't be shut down.

My apprentice and I stood 50' away and watched them do it, the company I work for supported my decision entirely.

Good choice Bob.

The youtube video you posted on MH Forum of the guy racking in the breaker and faulting is a graphic reminder of what will happen if something goes wrong in a panelboard like that.

InPhase277 · 05-14-2009, 08:54 PM

This thread is too funny

. I'll catch back up when I get done changing my oil. I have to remove the battery, drain the gas tank, bleed the fuel lines, remove the spark plugs, and chock the tires first, so it will take a while, but I'll check back in.