Installing breaker in a live panel - Page 13 - Electrician Talk - Professional Electrical Contractors Forum

Zog · 07-08-2009, 08:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drsparky

I was looking for a photo of a Cutler Hammer RPR-2 but could not find one so I used the Allis Chalmers.

FPL bought one of those, then they saw the Arc Safe model and bought 25 units, they are trying to sell thier (never used) Eaton C-H model.

drsparky · 07-08-2009, 08:55 AM

Cool, I never got to use the RPR-2; I just removed the bubble wrap and got it charging. It came with the PDPs on a major plant expansion. We did not need to pull any breakers after we had powered up.
A few years ago I had to rack a breaker for FPL in the Juno Beach corporate headquarters building and could not find a racking wrench anywhere. Had to use a socket and a 1/2 ratchet. Hope one of the 25 goes there.

adam4all · 07-09-2009, 10:35 PM

There are no accidents - it's called "human error". Ask any cop or emergency room physician.

Thank you Zog for being academic - as for the hard men - give'er - better you than me. God help you.

I am a 4th year and am still getting comfortable with splicing live. As far as switch gear, it's pretty obvious how risky that can be. I will definately be taking my time and working my plan in live distribution panels.

Thanks to all who have info to share - and for those with opinions, you know where those belong.

Love this forum and hope we continue to inform and educate each other.

captkirk · 07-09-2009, 11:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob Badger

That would be this one.

Oh I am sure this guy was fine ......... not.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bBvmPRqfmo

WTF is that guy thinking. Im all for shutting down. F that man. Im having my first child in less than a month and I would be damed to hell if I would risk my life for some bean counters.... Unreal...that dude almost looked like he was "Jacking" up a car....In a 480 panel no less. That guys boss should be fired IMO.

Zog · 07-10-2009, 10:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by captkirk

WTF is that guy thinking. Im all for shutting down. F that man. Im having my first child in less than a month and I would be damed to hell if I would risk my life for some bean counters.... Unreal...that dude almost looked like he was "Jacking" up a car....In a 480 panel no less. That guys boss should be fired IMO.

The only thing they did wrong was not wearing the right PPE or use remote racking, the breaker had an issue with the racking mech and they did not know the correct actions to take to correct it. But, the "jacking" motion you see is how you rack these breakers. I do it every day.

Toronto Sparky · 07-10-2009, 12:10 PM

And to think years ago (when I knew everything) I used to shove 600V busplugs into the live busduct .. Live and learn.. And I was lucky to live.

RIVETER · 10-29-2009, 04:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob Badger

Of course there is, it might take planing and scheduling but darn few things can not be shut down.

Why.

Why do you think the convenience of the buildings tenants outweighs your safety or any other electricians safety.

To me that was an idiotic move, let them call someone else.

I was sent to a University to swap out a 200 amp breaker in a 4000 amp 480 volt panel board that was no more then 25' from a 13.8KV to 480 transformer supplying it. The fault current would be incredibly high. The company I work for had installed this breaker and the connection to the bus bar failed. When I got there the University in house electricians where there. They showed me what I was there to do. I said OK lets shut it down and I will do it. They said no way can't be shut down.

My apprentice and I stood 50' away and watched them do it, the company I work for supported my decision entirely.

Bob I agree with you. That same university has probably closed classes for the day because of a water line break in the past...You have to draw your own line in regards to safety.

zgozvrm · 10-29-2009, 09:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob Badger

I would say no doubt about that as many more electricians work with those voltages.

Also, people tend to get complacent about the "lower" voltages ... "Oh it's just 120V, it'll be okay..."

(famous last words)

RIVETER · 10-29-2009, 09:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnt

Now this is tricky I am a supervisor and have done it hot in panels, gear, and vaults. But a few rules I demand 1st 3 to 4 people fully suited standing on a rubber mat 1 intelligent hook man. This is just a start before starting everybody goes over the job step by step what is going to happen and all possible items that can go wrong. In other words Pre Task Planning. Following these steps for all voltages including extreme will come home alive. And I work the extreme voltages yes I walk the high wires and yes it feels like ants on your skin.

I agree, pre task analysis is always good, especially those tasks not deemed to be a daily occurence.

sparky105 · 10-29-2009, 09:32 PM

We had a guy pushing in a breaker in a 3 phase 120 /208 pnl and the bus came in contact with the back of the bucket, from pushing to hard. it blew and he was wearing full flash gear (company policy) for testing. he was ok but the damage was costly. They ran him because pushing in breakers is not testing no live work is our policy So now that any hot work is tabbo off it goes. I get alot of ot out of these policies and our customers seem to be towing the line when they are properly educated on the hazards of live work. it hasen't once become an issue of anyone saying do it live or we get someone else and if it did our policy stands and office backs us 100 %. We have an outstanding safety record and we are never turned down because of our comp numbers so I have conceded that no live work is better then taking the risk.
good luck to the rest of you I get to go home safe every night baring any other freak accidents of course.

robroy952 · 11-03-2009, 10:53 PM

It is always best to work it safe! I think about how nice it is to be able to walk away and smell the fresh air after taking off my PPE. Most guys I work with complain how hot it is, and how am I supposed to install a breaker with these bulky gloves? Safety first, always a good choice! How many of you guys out there have your NFPA 70E certification. IMO, every electrician should, regardless of the scope of work you do.

220/221 · 11-16-2009, 03:12 PM

All hot work is not equal. We must use our experience and judgement.

Racking a breaker and installing one in a resi panel = apples/oranges.

No way in hell I would push a big switch into a live bus without the proper remote equipment.

Zog · 11-16-2009, 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by robroy952

How many of you guys out there have your NFPA 70E certification. IMO, every electrician should, regardless of the scope of work you do.

Zero.

Just to be clear, there is no such thing as a NFPA 70E "certification". When you have been properly trained per the 70E requirements your employer can "qualify" you for specific tasks and equipment.

But you are right, everyone should be 70E trained.

traveler · 11-16-2009, 04:12 PM

I can't count the times I've replaced a residental breaker on a live panel.....I'm still here....

~Joe

rdr · 11-16-2009, 07:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zog

Exactly! That is the whole point of an EEWP, to make someone sign thier name saying there is no other way to do it, they always change thier minds when they see that form.

Needed one of those for the idiot I saw that wanted to send a HELPER into 277 live!

rdr · 11-16-2009, 09:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MDShunk

You could take a helicopter. Far fewer people die in helicopter accidents each year when compared to automobile accidents.

More people in cars less in helicopters.

More people in 120 panels less in higher voltages.

Same analogy.

eddy current · 11-16-2009, 10:05 PM

Every customer is going to tell you "We can't shut it down"
Residential, commercial, industrial, it doesn't matter. Each customer assumes their workplace is SO important and a 15 minute or 1 hour shutdown can not be done in their mind.

We are the professionals who know the risks, not the customer.

Stick to you guns and say "NO, the power has to be shut off or it can not be done!"

They will grumble and complain for a few minutes and give you all kinds of excuses why THEY think it can't be shut down.

If they won't let you turn off the power then leave. Are you guys so hurting for work that you can't walk away from someone trying to convince you to work dangerously for their convenience or a little money?

Grow a pair and stick to your guns. You will look more professional in the end and they will have more respect for you and for electricity.

Rant over

Zog · 11-17-2009, 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eddy current

Every customer is going to tell you "We can't shut it down"
Residential, commercial, industrial, it doesn't matter. Each customer assumes their workplace is SO important and a 15 minute or 1 hour shutdown can not be done in their mind.

We are the professionals who know the risks, not the customer.

Stick to you guns and say "NO, the power has to be shut off or it can not be done!"

They will grumble and complain for a few minutes and give you all kinds of excuses why THEY think it can't be shut down.

If they won't let you turn off the power then leave. Are you guys so hurting for work that you can't walk away from someone trying to convince you to work dangerously for their convenience or a little money?

Grow a pair and stick to your guns. You will look more professional in the end and they will have more respect for you and for electricity.

Rant over

Excellent point, hand them the EEWP that requires them to sign that it cannot be shut down, they won't sign it and decide a shutdown is not so bad. Thats the whole point of the EEWP.

traveler · 11-17-2009, 10:56 AM

The sad part is.....you do this, and you go to the top of the layoff list.

~Joe

Zog · 11-17-2009, 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by traveler

The sad part is.....you do this, and you go to the top of the layoff list.

~Joe

No your company does this and avoid costly OSHA fines. (If your employer fired you for following OSHA and 70E rules your ass would be thier in court.)