blueheels2

So where do we draw the line? I work stuff hot all the time and for a long time I have assumed that it is a hazard that is inherent to the trade. However, after this site and MH's site I have really started to rethink this throughout the past year. Bob would you have worked that job at the University if you had proper arc flash protection or does it even exist. Not being a smart ass just really wondering what is the right thing to do?

Bob Badger

That would be this one.

Oh I am sure this guy was fine ......... not.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bBvmPRqfmo

__________________
Bob Badger
Electrical Construction and Maintenance
MA, RI, CT

InPhase277

What's funny is that some of us are acting like no one ever has to install a breaker in a live panel. Ever. Maybe from the sofa that is the case, but out in the field, it just ain't so. Again, if a complete shutdown is possible, great. There are several instances of critical systems that cannot be shut down while repairing yet other critical systems. This is a fact of life.

But I am an adult, and I know the risks of the job that I have chosen as my career. If I choose to snap a breaker into a panel, I will. I would NOT, however, order or require an employee to, say, rack in a breaker like that fella that got flashed.

Show of hands: how many of us have worked in a live panel?

Peter D

I would be willing to bet the available fault current in that situation is too high for PPE. The only option is a shutdown anyway, because there is no legit reason (by OSHA) to do that job live.

Peter D

If you want to mess around in live 480 volt panels, or even 208/120 panels, you go right ahead.

Getting 3rd degree burns or shocked so the arts and crafts aisle at WalMart can stay lit is totally worth it.

Bob Badger

I had some gear in my truck but honestly I doubt that there was any acceptable level of protection in that situation.

I do not know how to calculate fault current but I know enough that when you have a 4000 amp panel board fed with bus duct from transformer located just a few feet away that the fault current is not something I want to experience.

The breaker was held to the bus bars with 3/8" bolts, two where in fine condition one was severely overheated and brittle. I had no doubt it would start falling apart when a wrench was put to it. Sure enough the bolt fell apart and pieces dropped down through the panel, luckily noting shorted, the in house guys had just gloves, no other safety gear.

I am not saying I have not done hot work, or even that I never break the rules now. But as I learn more about what can happen, as I realize my kids count on me, as a 23 year old father in the company was killed by working live, as I see more videos of how bad things can go .... I am changing my work habits.

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Bob Badger
Electrical Construction and Maintenance
MA, RI, CT

blueheels2

Yeah I got a two year old I just put to bed and I would like to keep it that way.

Frasbee

I would like Jeff and Bob Badger to review the differences between "then" and "than".

Bob Badger

My hand is raised and I bet all others are as well.

But the point would be what?

As long as we all keep saying 'Yes I will risk my life for the bean counters' it will keep happening.

Instead of thinking 'I am manly I work hot' how about we act manly and say 'No, your convenience is not worth more then my safety?'

If my working live would save a life I would jump right in and do it, but that does not happen, we are not soldiers, cops or firemen.

__________________
Bob Badger
Electrical Construction and Maintenance
MA, RI, CT

Bob Badger

Deal with it, it is one of my many short comings.

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Bob Badger
Electrical Construction and Maintenance
MA, RI, CT

Peter D

You know, that's a really good point. Caving in to the pressure (from wherever it's coming from) and working live is actually the opposite of manliness. "Manliness" would be saying, as you pointed out, "No, we will do it my way."

Peter D

Yes, that list is pretty long.

Wait a sec, I thought you were perfect?

InPhase277

No point, really, just wanted to see how many would pull the holier-than-thou and say they hadn't. I understand where you are coming from, and I cannot stress enough that I agree by and large. And it has nothing to do, at on my part, with being manly.

Would I put a 350 A breaker into a 5000 A switch gear with nearly unlimited fault current available? Not me. Would I bolt a 20 A breaker into a hot panel to keep the lights on in the arts and crafts aisle at Wal Mart? Sure. I have done it many times. That doesn't mean the next time I won't burn my face off. However, I've accepted that risk. Working carefully and skillfully the risk is minimal.

Zog

My hand is up too, and I am the safety nazi. But just because I (we) have done something stupid in the past does not mean we should keep doing so.

Arc flash is something that we just began to understand a few years ago, 10 years ago it was just a hazard of the job because:
1. We didnt know how to calulate the risk levels
2. PPE did not exist to protect the workers
3. Remote racking and remote operators did not exist
4. Standards and OSHA laws requiring us to either turn it off or fill out an EEWP did not exist
5. Laws for employers to properly train us on recognizing and avioding the hazards did not exist
6. We were just plain dumb about it and accepted the 2,000 arc flash victims that were sent to burn centers in the US every year.

Now most of us have the training, PPE, and general good sense to play by the new rules. Others, well some old dogs just can not learn new tricks.

But, those who think it is worth the risk need to go visit a burn victim in a burn center, it is hell on earth, I have been there too many times, once was to visit my 18 month old girl that had a severe burn accident. Spent the next 3 months "debreeding" her in the bathtub 3 times a day with what was basically bleach and a brillo pad. That put my family through hell and no one should ever have to go through that.

Arc flash accidents are easily avoidable, anyone that takes the risk is either uneducated on the subject, or just plain stupid. I can fix the uneducated part, but I cant fix stupid.

nick

Well if you look at the yearly reports on electrical related deaths in the usa and break it down most are in the work place . Now that meaning by tools, accidental contact , not a electrician installing a breaker .

But that said electricians not linemen most electrical related electrical shocks or deaths were lower voltages and related to general wiring . Ive been in the trade over 35 years and have worked hot ! Now in the last 10 years we dont do it hot . And in my time ive been shocked bad , and have seen two electricians die at diffent jobs though the years and also one burnt so bad he can never work agian . lots of people though the years in constuction die few from electrical shock but you dont forget it ever . Take care be safe

Speedy Petey

Nope, sorry. I don't buy this argument.
Don't try and use the machismo or manliness angle on this one. It simply don't fly. It has NOTHING to do with manliness.
It's not like the last words of a guy racking a 3-phase 480v breaker were: "Hey guys. Watch this!"

I will say, I understand all points in this thread, but InPhase is more in line with the real world, and Bob and Peter are more inline with the perfect world.

Zog

That is a pretty bad situation, based on the 4000A main I would guess that transformer was about 3000kVA 13.8kv/480V, which has an impedance of around 5% which would give you about 72,171A of fault current. But that is not the bad part, because that breaker was in the panel, it is protected by the main breaker, which 95% of the time does not have INST protection due to coordination issues. ST is the fatest trip it will have, so lets assume a normal STD setting of 0.3 Sec at 600%.

Using the 70E equations you would have had an Ei of around 52.6 cal/cm2, which is above the 40 cal/cm2 limit that is considered survivable.

You made a wise choice.

Bob Badger

It should not but it does.

Or was I the only one that liked to be the go to guy for live work? I doubt that I am that unique.

__________________
Bob Badger
Electrical Construction and Maintenance
MA, RI, CT

nick

Well Zog we do agree with you if it can be shut down it will be , here is a example of not shutting down a semiconductor plant like HP if you shut them down its costing one million dollars per hour in production do you work it hot or do you walk ? Option get the best ppe and tools needed and perfrom the work . and do it safely

Bob Badger

A little more info. The gear was old, the breaker came from some used breaker company, I do not recall the panel manacturer but it was basiclly a MLO panel fed with bus bars from Allis-Charmers 13.8 KV gear.

The reason they gave me for not being able to shut it off was the switch in the Allis-Charmers gear was giving them trouble.

Yeah, even then (about 5 years ago) I had enough sense to figure that.

__________________
Bob Badger
Electrical Construction and Maintenance
MA, RI, CT