Bob Badger

They work the line 24/7 365 days, no down time at all to schedule work? That is amazing, that must be some great machinery they have there.

__________________
Bob Badger
Electrical Construction and Maintenance
MA, RI, CT

Peter D

Not one time did I say I was working in a perfect world, or that I have never done live work.

I've seen enough arc flash burn pictures, watched enough arc flash videos on youtube, and participated in enough forum discussions to be aware of the incredible danger of live work. Knowledge is power, and I've empowered myself to stay out of the danger of live work.

Everyone makes their own decisions with the knowledge they have. If you know the hazards and still choose to ignore them, fine with me. But there are very real costs and consequences if something goes wrong. And I would be more than willing to safely say that injuries, death, cost of damage to electrical equipment, lost time, etc from an accident will always cost more than scheduling a shutdown.

Jeff000

fawk!!!
But I have to say, wtf was he thinking?

Working in a live house panel, and working in a live MCC panel are a little different too.
I have no issues doing live work in 120 panels, hell even 347 depending what I am doing. But something like the guy in the video above I would tell anyone saying I couldn't turn it off to pound sand.
That said I have no problems metering high voltage/amperage equipment, but thats a little different.

Peter D

347 will have 600 volts between phases. Extremely bad idea to work on 600 volts live.

nick

Well yes they run round the clock with some parts of the process but then they also do shut downs for testing and maint & repair time but breakers dont wait for them special days Bob .

william1978

WOW

acmax

The utube down load is a short taken from a OSHA safety clip training film. Seen it last year still creeps me out knowing how many times I worked similar situations. PPE is not practical for many live scopes of work. Shutdown is the safest way.Try replacing an I line breaker in an SDP Panel wearing PPE. GOOD LUCK, I attempted to and found it far more difficult than I imagined. Also would never put a helper in or near these places.

goose134

Time and again we have been told to de-energize equipment when possible. Many times customers will INSIST that there be no shutdown. Our safety guy at the shop has a document for them to sign transferring liability to the client/ property management company. It usually changes their minds.

I remember talking to the guy from SqD who commissioned my switchgear. He told me that there was a need to kill the service at the federal prison in Chicago. It went all the way to the top of the board of corrections and he said: "kill it." Around one in the morning, service was killed, breaker was replaced, service back on. My point? If you can kill the power to a federal prison in the middle of downtown Chicago for an hour, there is no compelling reason you can't kill just about any service out there. IMHO

Speedy Petey

Man. Go back and re-read what I wrote. See the words: "... in line with ..." ?

Peter D

Yes, I see that....just semantics in my opinion. I had a point to make anyway.

acmax

Electricity sits and waits to kill you,maybe not now but first time you let your guard down. Today even the smallest arc on a job site during an install creates a 3 page report. Last company I worked for required it. Or You could be fired.Also promted a trip to the QC manager and he was **s.

IMM_Doctor

Zog,

Thank you for the link to the Arc-Flash incident report here on this forum, and on the other one. Knowledge is power.

One point to note, not yet mentioned in this thread, but I have seen it in others. Many responses to this thread have indicated that they assume the risk of working hot to enable the customer to continue some uninterruptable supply of electrical power to manufacturing or even “hospital” services.

If you REALLY look at the incident report link that ZOG attached, it strikes me as ironic. The decision was made to NOT interrupt the power to perform a minor electrical installation (15 minutes?), but once the boom happened, there was NO power for minutes, hours, days, week?, until the incident was documented, and the ENTIRE panel and its components replaced.

Jeff000

In my younger years working at Ipex on the line a "scheduled maintenance" shut down happened when a catastrophic failure of a line happened. I have seen some pretty umm crafty ways of keeping said line running for as long as possible. The one line had decora switch painted orange in the middle of an extension cord spiced into the power cord of a saw (lots of tape so the water that was everywhere wouldn't short it out) as the EM stop because the actual button didn't stay up on its own for long (it was taped to stay up) so was bypassed for weeks until something else shut down the line and they were able to take the saw apart to replace the switch.


yes, don't touch two phases.
I use insulated tools, always wear gloves (the thin rubber palmed kevlar ones, they will protect from 120v, never tried anything more), and take my sweet time working live. And if for a second I have to question the work I will say I need the power off and it will be scheduled for a time when it effects the least amount of people.

nick

Well thats why they make these http://whsalisbury.com/arc/whatsnew.htm


And NETA http://www.powertest.org/



Ive seen lots of breakers taken out hot in industrial plants such as fruit packing plants- milk plants - pepsi plants and your big bad power plants you unrack and rack it out or in and at medium voltage or higher.
kinda a normal part of electrical work and its done everyday with no problems its designed to do that by the manufacture the electrician is required to ware protection in your video he has no protection . most today ware it .

Bob Badger

No, not really.

Those items of PPE are for doing the live work that is allowed which is pretty much limited to troubleshooting.

You, like many, many others are under the impression that once you have suited up you are allowed to do any hot work that you want to. That is false.

The following two paragraphs list the only OSHA allowed reasons for working hot unless your a lineman.

Can you show me where money is mentioned?

OSHA does not care about money until they pass out fines.



I have seen many things as well but what does any of that have to do with the rules that I have posted.


Look, I don't mean to be coming of as preachy and I am far from perfect, I am sure I will still snap a breaker into a residential panel hot but that is far different then what this thread is about.


Until there is a problem, then you in a burn ward getting your skin peeled off .........

Work how you want, your a big boy and I can't control what you do, but to me it makes good sense to try to avoid getting skinned.

__________________
Bob Badger
Electrical Construction and Maintenance
MA, RI, CT

TOOL_5150

I read that PDF file Zog posted. Man that really hits home if you read the whole thing - its almost like I was there watching it happen. The electrician had no intention on going to the hospital that day - but he did.

I am sure looking back on it - he would have rather shut the panel power off, install the breaker, and power it back up.

Just because you are willing to do what some people wont, doesnt make you a better electrician. In fact, Working in panels like that while energized is stupid - accidents will happpen, maybe next time is your turn.

~Matt

__________________
I would rather beg for forgiveness then beg for permission.

Zog

Exactly! That is the whole point of an EEWP, to make someone sign thier name saying there is no other way to do it, they always change thier minds when they see that form.

Great post, I run into similar situations all the time, shut down automotive production lines, shutdown arc furnaces in steel mills, etc..

dawgs

Electricians are like snake tamers, turn the power off and its like working with non poisonous snakes, working hot is like working with poisonous snakes. Like the snake tamer we are cautious and some what compfortable doing so. But all snake tamers get bitten at least once no matter how careful they are. I prefer non poisonous snakes.

InPhase277

What a second, Bob. I didn't see an exemption in the OSHA rules you posted for residential panels. A 120/240 100 A panel can still burn your face off and leave you in the burn unit. Why would you put up all these red flags about ever working in a hot panel, then turn around and say you would still work in a hot panel?

The difference between a 240 panel and a 480 panel is the explosive energy available. However, the potential for accidents doesn't change. If you say it is not OK to work in a hot 480 V panel, but it is OK to work in a hot 240 V residential panel, then that is a direct contradiction. Accidents don't care what the voltage is, they happen when they happen.

Zog

Voltages are misleading, would you expect a larger arc flash potential on a typical 480V system or a 13.8kV system?