1900

Yes, you do. Or so says the people who no longer work in the field and are not subject to layoff in a horrible economy if not willing to do the simple work hot.

And I'm sure someone will say something like "So you're willing to risk your life for a job?!?!". Well, the answer is YES, because I (and all of you hypocrites) risk our lives everyday when we drive to work. Driving is actually the most dangerous part of an electrician's day, yet you all make up excuses why you freely do such a dangerous act, but then you complain about installing a breaker...

acmax

When driving to work the risk is unforeseen,working a live panel is a foreseen danger.You can only get electrocuted when the powers on.But the risk is a concuss choice.And I have never meet a electrician that has not worked a live panel. Heck Sometimes removing the dead front can be the highest risk. Lets move past the old stuff . I was wrong.

1900

EXACTLY, you proved my point.

When driving to work you can get killed out of the blue, a car could come from anywhere. I still have a limp from a drunk driver hitting me.

When working in a live panel, you know all the risks, you know what to look out for. As long as you give a quick inspection for completely loose connections that could fall out and hit you, you are completely safe from surprises. The only accident would be from fault of your own.

Knowing that, how are you getting to work on Monday?

You going to drive and be one of the hundreds of thousands of Americans that die each year in their car?

acmax

I'll be taking my sons skateboard ,I hate traffic

1900

Hey, doing that, or taking mass transit, or changing your job so that you can work around mass transit to get there would keep you much safer than not changing breakers in a hot panel would.

It's just the truth, no matter how depressing...

In the meantime I'm going to really stir the pot. All the people who say that 70E should be followed to the letter of the law, how do you install breakers in residences? When you have a simple job at someone's house to do and part of it is installing a breaker for a dedicated circuit, do you call the PoCo to pull the meter (following their official rules)? Because flipping the main is not enough, you are still working in a panel with live conductors/lugs and relatively high fault current.

InPhase277

No, the meter is still hot and it is pretty close to the panel usually. I'd have them shut the grid down at the nearest substation, just to be on the safe side. But I'd do it at night to avoid any harmful UV from the sun.

InPhase277

I am watching Modern Marvels on the History Channel now. It is about Ben Franklin. What a hack! He carelessly did experiments with the largest arcs nature can muster, lightning! He didn't have to do that. He should have stayed in the house and not put himself in harm's way. His experiments were un-necessary risks. Too bad the Federal Government he helped create didn't exist yet to fine his ass!

cdnelectrician

Bob Badger

Very true but also does not really compare to what we do.

You and I are not Ben Franklin, we are not inventing anything new, nothing we do at work is going to change the world.

What we are doing is keeping the product flowing off the the line, we are keeping the lights on in the offices And things like that are important because if they go out for even a short time something bad will happen ........... er .....ah .... well ... I don't know what bad things will happen .... but I am sure something bad will happen if we interrupt the normal flow of the day.

LawnGuyLandSparky

100% of my work is done live and must be.

Construction work in general is inherently dangerous, one of the reasons it (used to) pay well. So is driving a gas tanker or explosives. Mitigating the danger wherever and whenever possible is a noble cause. Attmpting to eliminate it... is a pipe dream.

nick

Well the transfer pump story!

There was this transfer pump in a new semiconductor plant when new it tested fine but in florida sometimes power is off for long periods no one checked the circuit as the Engineer assigned it to a normal circuit bigg mistake !!We never check Engineers there always correct !!

When the outage day came one year later and they had 10 minutes of fuel left no transfer to belly tank lots of peoples jobs on the line and major law suits if power does not happen .

No one had a key to the support panel located inside the generator house but the lites where on so we had power there all the maintance electricians at the plant had that deer in the head lite look .

pulled out the power from the lite circuit hot and we connected it up to the transfer pump we did it HOT didnt have time to lock out tag out didnt care but the power issue was ok now . just a fast fix to a major problem no one really cared how it got done .
If not done would have cost millions in law suits and heads would roll! Take care being safe its not done everyday .

SmithBuilt

I used to think we had to work hot also due to computers, data, etc. But being in the business to make money drove me to realize saftey will make me more money. Yes more, I bill for all the time it takes to set up a shut down, PPE, shift pay everything. I have yet to loose a job to this practice. After explaining the actual OSHA rule most people understand and have absolutly no problem with shut downs. We have a very good workers compensation rating and I also intend to keep that. I suspect one accident would erase any savings you have by working hot.






I have to ask why? Do you work on circuts where someones life depends on it?

__________________
Tim

"Everybody has to believe in something.....I believe I'll have another drink."
-W.C. Fields

1900

For starters, it might mean the EC loosing the contract or the electrical worker loosing his job. Earlier someone mentioned something about the difference between the real world and the perfect world, which one do you think we are in?

oldman

Zog, I used to think you were an intelligent person...but the fear mongering and the "if it saves one life, no matter the cost, it's worth it" mentality of your comment is the antithesis of everything this country was founded on...

like was said above your post, we are in an industry that is full of risk...you mitigate the risk as much as possible, but if you feel that we should protect everyone from cradle to grave, you are in the wrong industry...get into quilting or something...

additionally, your comment is akin to asking "so, when did you stop beating your wife?"....it's presumptuous and off the mark...to assume that because someone disagrees with going overboard that they are in favor of killing someone...

it's a terrible tragedy when someone gets hurt in our industry, and I don't know of any electrician or contractor that wants someone to get hurt or worse...but the argument that you put forth in your comment above is the reason that this country is losing everything...

instead of reasonable actions and precautions to limit risk, OSHA and the like have made it so time consuming and expensive that companies have decided to completely abandon dealing with their regulations and move to countries like China or Mexico where there are really no safety regulations...

one could argue that they would go there anyway, which may be true, but if the cost of operating in the US wasn't increased exponentially due to regulations to "save one life", it wouldn't be so cost effective to move an entire operation to a foreign country...

so, at the end of the day, I ask "How much time and money are you willing to spend to make sure that no one ever does so much as stub a toe, ever again, in the entire world?" and if your answer is anything other than "infinity dollars", then you sir, are a hypocrite....

edit to add: i read through most of this thread, and there were good points made...i am in no way advocating rolling through life with reckless abandon...but i stand by my point that society as a whole is becoming afraid of it's own shadow and it's detrimental to the success of this country...

Zog

Sure seemed that way when you said this


Impossible? Really? Have you tried asking? It gets done everyday by other electricians that are not so stubborn and have decided to change the way they do things.

I get out in the field nearly everyday testing power systems. Why dont you get off your high horse and admit you need to change the ways you do electrical work.

I would love to know where you took them and who was the instructor because you have shown absoultly no knowledge of the content.

Well we finally agree on something.

Zog

Um, yes you do,it is the law. OSHA is very specific about this, Bob already quoted the articles in this thread.

Zog

We all were, and now change is here. Federal requlations require our employers to ensure we follow safe work practices, to make out job safer. Why do some people fight this change?

Peter D

That question is a non-starter. Preventing injuries from arc flash are not like preventing simple toe stubbing. 3rd degree burns, maiming, and death are the usual outcome of any significant arc flash event. Nevermind the lost time and property damage. I'd say the cost of that is pretty significant.

But, it's apparent from this thread, that risking these injuries are acceptable, an electricians willingly put themselves in this danger. Fine by me.

oldman

don't feel bad, i also fight seatbelt and helmet laws...

oldman

truth be told, we rarely, if ever work live...i don't like to take unnecessary risk...i just don't believe that you can legislate safety or outlaw stupidity...