Liability/Safety concerns: Licensed or Unlicensed Electricians? - Page 2 - Electrician Talk - Professional Electrical Contractors Forum

RIVETER · 10-28-2009, 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe Tedesco

Please comment on the Liability/Safety concerns for the following tasks, and whether they should be performed by Licensed or Unlicensed Electricians.

Nailing nonmetallic (plastic) boxes and screwing metal boxes to metal studs.

Drilling wooden studs or punching metal studs for raceways or Nonmetallic Sheathed Cables (Romex.)

Pulling Nonmetallic Sheathed Cable (Romex).

Hanging panelboard cabinets (cans.)

Moving electrical equipment, materials and tools.

Hanging temporary lighting with cord cap end.

Installing cable connectors to metal boxes

Installing equipment bonding (pigtails) in boxes.

Stapling Nonmetallic Sheathed Cables (Romex) to wooden studs.

Installing PVC (RNMC) in trenches.

Unboxing lighting fixtures.

Setting and securing fixtures (lights) in ceiling grids.

Installing seismic wires, and earthquake clips for lay in fixtures.

Nailing recessed lights to joists.

If you are doing electrical work in Kentucky you are supposed to be liscensed. It is considered that if you are liscensed...you are supposed to be qualified, but who knows for sure. If I owned a company and I would would be held liable for actions of my employees I would make sure they they were QUALIFIED, and I would insure them to protect myself.

Jeffro · 10-28-2009, 01:41 PM

I agree with a lot of what is being said here as far as unqualified jack legs tinkering around with people's lives and property. However have you forgotten the requirements needed to reach the licensed level? You have to start at the bottom and should work along side a licensed electrician while receiving hands on experience. That is the only way an upcoming electrician can become licensed and have a good understanding of the trade.But to say only licensed electricians should be the only ones doing the work is incorrect. No licensed electrician got to there level without starting at the bottom.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shado

I have the same question as jrannis.....

Are you referring 'unlicensed' as those who are not employed by an EC?
Or cubs?

No electrical work should be done by others not employed by an EC.

If you are talking about cubs......by all means,get their experience going! How the hell else are they going to get licensed?

BryanMD · 10-28-2009, 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe Tedesco

What are your qualifications Sir? Are you licensed?

I have every bit of the licensing required to legally do all of the job tasks your list described. It sounds like you have a problem with that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rewire

I consider this all to be the responsibility of the elctrical contractor much of the work can be preformed by a well supervised apprentice.

+1

cutting to the chase:
The job description and usage of the word "electrician" would appear to have grown too broad in consideration of the relatively narrow frame of reference to the work that most people employed (or contracting) as such actually do on a day to day basis.

Joe Tedesco · 10-28-2009, 04:34 PM

Unlicensed persons who are not electricians is really what I meant when I wrote this.

Some areas allow "laborers" to install some parts of electrical systems and in my opinion, since they are not electricians we should not allow them to do the work that an "electrician" is trained to do.

I am sorry for the confusion and I never intended to question anyone's credentials. Please forgive me!

I am just counting the hours now before I leave and come home so I can get ready for my trip to Italy. I will also buy all of my new toys that will keep me happy and busy while I am counting my money!

Hey! Boston, MA area electricians; the beers are on me; just tell me were and when!

RIVETER · 10-28-2009, 04:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe Tedesco

Unlicensed persons who are not electricians is really what I meant when I wrote this.

Some areas allow "laborers" to install some parts of electrical systems and in my opinion, since they are not electricians we should not allow them to do the work that an "electrician" is trained to do.

I am sorry for the confusion and I never intended to question anyone's credentials. Please forgive me!

I am just counting the hours now before I leave and come home so I can get ready for my trip to Italy. I will also buy all of my new toys that will keep me happy and busy while I am counting my money!

Hey! Boston, MA area electricians; the beers are on me; just tell me were and when!

I agree with what you have said. By the way, I like Boston...and for that matter...BEER too.

BryanMD · 10-28-2009, 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe Tedesco

Unlicensed persons who are not electricians is really what I meant when I wrote this.

so... you have suggested that there are indeed unlicensed persons out there with the right to be called electricians (and presumably to do the work)... what then what is the licensed variant of "electrician"?

Joe Tedesco · 10-28-2009, 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BryanMD

so... you have suggested that there are indeed unlicensed persons out there with the right to be called electricians (and presumably to do the work)... what then what is the licensed variant of "electrician"?

They have no right to be called electricians because they are not electricians!

BryanMD · 10-28-2009, 05:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe Tedesco

They have no right to be called electricians because they are not electricians!

you've been around far too long to not KNOW better than that.
and however much you may want it to be true...
using large fonts is not enough to make it so.

rdr · 10-28-2009, 06:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe Tedesco

Unlicensed persons who are not electricians is really what I meant when I wrote this.

Some areas allow "laborers" to install some parts of electrical systems and in my opinion, since they are not electricians we should not allow them to do the work that an "electrician" is trained to do.

I was wondering if you meant cubs or labourers as I read too. In that case I'd say the only of those things unlicensed should be allowed to do is move material unbox fixtures and maybe drilling and punching studs.....but as someone else already said if I end up having to use nail plates.....LOOK OUT

rewire · 10-28-2009, 06:05 PM

Joe I think you should clarify if these laborers are under supervision of a licensed electrician. I have a first year who can do much of this work but he is not a qualified electrician but is under supervision of one.

Jeffro · 10-28-2009, 06:16 PM

Well there you have it folks for those who were unaware,unless you are licensed you are no longer electricians. I love the colored font though very expressive.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe Tedesco

They have no right to be called electricians because they are not electricians!

rdr · 10-28-2009, 06:19 PM

Wow so a fourth year that hasn't tested yet but you can turn him loose to do just about everything you can do with little to no instruction isn't an electrician either?

So if I move to a state that doesn't reciprocate.....I'm not an electrician anymore until I take their test? Hmm.....interesting

Joe Tedesco · 10-28-2009, 06:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rewire

Joe I think you should clarify if these laborers are under supervision of a licensed electrician. I have a first year who can do much of this work but he is not a qualified electrician but is under supervision of one.

Ok here's another situation. What about maintenance and repairs in buildings where ballasts are being replaced by Unqualified Persons?

This happens in many locations around the country and they too are not trained electricians.

We all know about the hazards associated with ballast replacement. I guess that the bottom line is really the daily or hourly rate of pay.

rewire · 10-28-2009, 06:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rdr

Wow so a fourth year that hasn't tested yet but you can turn him loose to do just about everything you can do with little to no instruction isn't an electrician either?

Apprentice electrician

Quote:

So if I move to a state that doesn't reciprocate.....I'm not an electrician anymore until I take their test? Hmm.....interesting

You would be a Qualified electrician until you recieved your license in the new state you would be considered a licensed electrician in the state you hold your license.

Bob Badger · 10-28-2009, 06:37 PM

Funny thing is you will not find the word electrician in the NEC or in OSHA and you can be qualified to do electrical work under both the NEC and OSHA without holding any licenses.

BryanMD · 10-28-2009, 06:39 PM

the more you try to articulate where the many lines may (or may not) get drawn...
the more you sound like politicians and preachers.

politicians? yes sir!
just like the ones who attempt to put false hurdles in the way of someone wanting to earn an honest living and provide for their family.

Joe Tedesco · 10-28-2009, 06:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rdr

Wow so a fourth year that hasn't tested yet but you can turn him loose to do just about everything you can do with little to no instruction isn't an electrician either?

So if I move to a state that doesn't reciprocate.....I'm not an electrician anymore until I take their test? Hmm.....interesting

I talked to a friend yesterday from Indiana who was just hired to come to IRAQ as a Master Electrician and he told me that a 21 year old person was given a Master's License!

He also mentioned that the State of Kentucky realized that they made a serious mistake and took it back and gave him a journeyman's license instead.

rewire · 10-28-2009, 06:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe Tedesco

Ok here's another situation. What about maintenance and repairs in buildings where ballasts are being replaced by Unqualified Persons?

This happens in many locations around the country and they too are not trained electricians.

We all know about the hazards associated with ballast replacement. I guess that the bottom line is really the daily or hourly rate of pay.

ballast replacement has become easy with the new quick disconnets on all new fixtures

Joe Tedesco · 10-28-2009, 07:03 PM

At one time in a previous edition of the NEC the word "electrician" was used in a rule in one location. I don't remember what edition it was in. The term is used once in Annex H in the 2008 NEC.

Also, the term "electrician" is used in the 2009 Edition of 70E as follows:

"FPN: An example of direct exposure is the qualified electrician who works on the motor starter control, the power circuits, or the motor. An example of indirect exposure is the person who works on the coupling between the motor and compressor."

It is also used in an OSHA standard here.

Note:

Everyone should be reminded that free access to a "read only" function can be found for all NFPA codes on their site; see Codes and Standards.

Mastertorturer · 10-30-2009, 04:28 PM

In Ontario the only thing an un-licensed or non-apprentice can do is plug in a power tool. Literally. By law. That's it.

Any helper working for an electrical contractor has to be registered or quit working for the contractor after 3 months by law.

Do people follow this...no.