oldschool

anyone have any experience with using an estimating service?

ive been going over plans for a new church for a couple days now and it seems to me it might be better just to pay for this service

my business is mostly service work and small commercial renovations.

i can see this this estimate is going to be time consuming, and a bit more involved than i would normally tackle , so i thought for 4 or 5 hundred bucks it might be better to get a professional estimate.

just wondering if anyone has any thoughts on these services

ACB

if you don't have the time to spend on it, and can find a profesional with experience that can prove they can pull in jobs and have a margin for profit. Other wise I would do it myself, bigger jobs can seem daunting, just break it down into sections, look at every part, make a check list of whats on the drawings so you can confirm at the end you covered every single thing down to the last receptical cover, then take all the small parts and tie them together into one quote.
It would make me a little nervious having someone quote something for me, if they mis a detail, or miscaculate the hours to do a portion, or any number of mistakes, you will be loosing money cause of their error. I would rather loose money because of my own mistake. less likely to commit an act of violence against myself than someone else.

sgr1

I am a green contractor. Estimating is hard and the times are too. If you know the kind of jobs your bidding just keep trying thats what I'm doing but don't cut yourself short just to get a job. If your not at least breaking even you might as well stay home or you will go out of buiness. You might try hiring someone to bid it and you do it to and see where you are compared to them. Steve

oldschool

thanks for the responses

i am in the process of bidding this project. the further along and the more time i spend on this just got me to wonder about these estimating services. periodically i get mailings from these companies or see the ads in contractors magazines. "when you dont have the time or the estimator, we'll lend you ours" ect.

just wondering if anybody has used these services

shields

Best advise I can tell you is stay away from those services.

An associate of mine got stung big with using one of those, just as was mentioned above. I can't remember the exact details but it was an obvious mistake that should have been caught. I think he mis quoted the price on the warehouse fixtures. When bidding I always us high lighters to mark the plans count up every thing, then before compiling into the final price count again. Once you are at that point the extra time to check is well worth the effort, rather then getting stuck into a contract that you mis calculated.

Samson

I am using an electrical estimating service in Columbia Station OH and they are great. I don't even have an estimator anymore.
It's important to make sure you get referrals from the service cuz not all of them are good like the one mentioned.
I'm using this particular estimating service because they have a very good website that tells me about their services and shows me the estimators they have with their backgrounds.
Their referrals were real open and honest about them too. So, I think that other person just had bad luck. Don't forget you can hire an estimator that can make mistakes that you have to pay too.
Just thought I'd let you know about my experience with an estimating service.

edpean

when I was new to the business, I took a class.

John Valdes

I was thinking of returning to school for electrical estimating. My thoughts are to work freelance. I have no experience at all in estimating. I do have my masters and contractors license. I am retired/disabled and was looking for a way to make a couple extra bucks a month. Would school give me enough knowledge or would I have to go to work for someone to gain some experience? Thanks John

chiefestimator

Oldschool - I just joined this forum. If you have any questions about estimating, I would be glad to help. I also started a blog recently and am posting articles about estimating on a regular basis.

DavisIMI

John Valdes,
I've read some of your post, and the fact that your very experienced, have a masters license, and contractors license is a big plus, but, you mentioned you have no estimating experience, that is a big negative. The good thing is you know how the job goes in, and that means a lot, but estimating is more than that. You may get by with someone who does residential work but not commercial or industrial. You have to be very computer savvy, this means fluent in Word, Excel, PowerPoint, MS Project and so on. Planning and scheduling are job duties that you need experience in also, this brings MS Project into play. Know how to apply cost codes and develop job cost tracking methods and reports are also part of the job description. Becoming an Electrical Estimator is a lot more than counting box's and wire, your almost, if not the most important aspect of a contractors company and staff. With out you he cannot get a job or make a profit. I would suggest buying books and taking classes, then "try" to get a job with a contractor to get several years of experience before you plan on starting out on your own. Most of those people who do that have been estimating very big jobs for a very long time. And most of them have a engineering degree, heck most contracting firms now want you to have an engineering degree or a business degree before they'll hire you as an estimator, not all but most. unless you have 20+ years under your belt. I'm not trying to discourage you, I'm just answering your question. I think it would be a great thing for you to get into, you just need to know how to go about it.

__________________
DavisIMI

Mayers_Electric_Co

In the past, Ive had good experience with larger estimating companies. The freelance estimators with 2 or 3 guys seem to cut your numbers so you win and they look good, but you just end up losing money on the job. Ive seen bigger estimating firms that did real research on how to win a job without cutting out your profit.

Another option: I sent one of my guys to an estimating training class. See if you can find one in your area. It frees you up to run your men. The class that I sent my guy to was in Akron, OH. They said they were planning on putting free courses online at www.estimatingtv.com. It's not up yet, but it's something to check out in the future.

Russell1200

Do they cut out actual count numbers? Optimistic production rates? If they are giving you a bare bones number, but do it in a consistent way, than that would be reasonable. They would essentially be leaving it up to you to introduce a contingency amount.

The small estimating shops probably keep more, of their relatively small amount, of business by providing competitive numbers. Too many people still view the low bid as the "winning" bid. Who wants to pay for a loser?

The larger outfits with their greater volume are probably at the point where liability, and perceived deeper pockets, become an issue. They are more likely to pay for their mistakes.

To the larger point on estimating services, in a lot of commercial markets ($40k to $3Million range) it is a bit of a numbers game. From a strictly estimating point of view, an estimate is your product. You cannot "sell" product you do not have. In current circumstances where qualified people are readily available in many markets, the concern of overshooting your capacity is not as great of a concern. Putting product in front of customers tends to lead to more invitations and more opportunities. If you can find someone that puts out a professional estimate, expanding your estimating volume can be very helpful.

I might add that looking over other professionals detailed estimates can rapidly accelerate the learning curve.

chiefestimator

The truth about hiring a new estimator or a new estimating service is that they are the same. The first thing you do is interview them. Get a feeling for their background and abilities. Get references. Require samples of their work, which should be similar to the type of work you do.

Should you decide to hire a new estimator or service, the first estimate should be done in parallel. Only when the parallel estimate is compared to your satisfaction should you start to trust the new estimator or service.

Notice that I said start to trust. Full trust can never be obtained, as everyone makes mistakes. A great amount of trust can be obtained as the number of good estimates your new estimator or service delivers increases. As an owner, you should never stop reviewing the estimates. It’s your money.

Remember, there is a lot of #@$&! out their. It is your job to see though it.

SoSpec

I was surfing and ran across this forum and was particularly interested in the discussion concerning electrical estimating services. I also operate an estimating service and neither am I on here to get work. I have been in the electrical construction business since 1971 (38 years). I started estimating with a pencil and eraser.

An electrical estimating service can help a contractor get work, but there are many ways to lose money on a job other than the estimate. A great estimate and a lousy field crew will lose money; don't blame the estimator. A bad estimate and a good field crew can sometimes make up for the error. What I am saying is that electrical construction is a team effort. I have estimated many jobs for contractors who unrealistically added costs for items that I know are going to make them high; but he is the boss, all I can do is advise. I spent over 25 of my years in this business as a project manager and "On Site" project manager, so I have some exposure as to how the "field" works.

The measure of my success is whether I have repeat business. I have one company who released their estimator and now they send me 95% of their work. You can usually tell how a business relationship is going to go very quickly. I recently performed and estimate for a new customer and we had very little contact. I normally expect there to be SOME questions as to how I arrived at certain decisions.

As I also heard on this forum, the contractor has to be responsible for review of the estimate, it is his money. All of us are human and mistakes are made. Sometimes you can't see the forest for the trees and it is possible to make a simple mistake in math or in a formula, so please check your estimate, no matter who performs it. Thanks for letting me vent.

Master Estimator

They are not all the same!
I operate an estimating service and to say they are all the same is just not right. I have been in business over 10 years and have had several so called estimators and an employee steal my proccess. Neverthless estimating is a serious part of your business. If you use square foot or multipliers you are not estimating. Estimating is designing the electrical installation based on a code or engineered concept from a 2 dimentional format.
Many of these so called estimating companies are failed electricians or wanabe estimators with a computer. Be carefull to get references and to have time to work with the first few estimates. ITS YOUR COMPANY-BE RESPONCIBLE!
I would recommend the larger estimating companies as they have the experiance accross many markets. NEVER PREPAY or get sucked into a gimic service.
Tell the company what you want!!!! make them repeat it. Even write it down so communication is clear.
Outsourcing to the right estimating service can save the company thousands of dollars in employee cost and management. Most contractors will find it much more easily to find a project manager rather than a good estimator. By setting up a communications path, working with an estimating company can be a rewarding profitable venture.

Bob Kraemer

Do have a site address for your blog?

Master Estimator

I do not have a blog site right now.

Over the last 4 months I have been working on a website update that will include a blog. I am hoping to be completed shortly.

chiefestimator

The answer for Bob Kraemer is...

http://electricalestimator.wordpress.com/

And for Master Estimator - That was a poor choice of wording on my part. The context was regarding large or small estimating shops. The wording should have been more like, "Large or small, they should be approached the same...."

BDB

Just took a look at your site, very informative.

__________________
Proud Father of a US Army Solider

chiefestimator

Thank you BDB.

If any of you would like to see an article on a particular subject, let me know. I was thinking about covering some of the method aspects of estimating for those of you new to commercial/industrial estimating.