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03-03-2007, 09:55 PM
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#1
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Junior Member
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 2
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14awg branch off a 12 awg
I'm trying to find a reference in NEC about running a 14awg line off a 12awg 20amp source. I was told by someone that it was okay to splice into a 12 with a 14, I know you can't have a 14awg line on a 20 amp breaker, but I'm not sure if it's okay to tap into 12awg with a 14awg branch or not. Any guidance would be appreciated.
Thanks
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03-03-2007, 09:57 PM
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#2
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Junior Member
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: BC, Canada
Posts: 5
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Negative, your breaker needs to protect the smallest wire in the circuit. In this case the 14 AWG.
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03-03-2007, 10:06 PM
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#3
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Junior Member
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Islandrider
Negative, your breaker needs to protect the smallest wire in the circuit. In this case the 14 AWG.
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Dang, that's what I thought but when your given direction by someone that's been doing it for 60 years you can't argue too much. It requires another line to be run for the 15amp outlets. Is this a "shortcut" thing that some do to save time or was it allowed in the past?
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03-03-2007, 10:44 PM
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#4
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Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: NY State
Posts: 3,346
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It was never "allowed" or legal. Some used to think it fell under the tap rules, or at least they convinced themselves that.
I have seen some real doozies of justifications (excuses) for it.
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03-04-2007, 09:50 PM
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#5
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Member
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Vermont/MA.
Posts: 48
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Back when I was an apprentice some years ago I was told that switch legs off of a 20 amp circuit could be 14 Ga,  I believed it at the time  . Sometimes you have to learn things for yourself. 
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(Do the job right boy or don't do it at all.)
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03-04-2007, 10:17 PM
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#6
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Salt Lake City
Posts: 617
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I think I heard the original post say all this is on a 15 amp circuit?
14 gauge on a 15 amp breaker is legal.
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Joe Momma was here 
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03-04-2007, 10:26 PM
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#7
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Junior Member
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: BC, Canada
Posts: 5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Momma
14 gauge on a 15 amp breaker is legal.
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Indead it is; however, in his first post he states that the circuit in question is a "14awg line off a 12awg 20amp source" which is not allowed by NEC.
Last edited by Islandrider; 03-04-2007 at 10:32 PM.
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03-04-2007, 10:30 PM
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#8
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Salt Lake City
Posts: 617
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Quote:
Originally Posted by newbie
I know you can't have a 14awg line on a 20 amp breaker,.....
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I assume you simply overlooked this statement in the original post
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Joe Momma was here
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03-04-2007, 10:39 PM
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#9
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Moderator
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: NY State
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Joe, you are playing semantics here. You need the whole sentence:
Quote:
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I was told by someone that it was okay to splice into a 12 with a 14, I know you can't have a 14awg line on a 20 amp breaker, but I'm not sure if it's okay to tap into 12awg with a 14awg branch or not.
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He is saying he knows you cannot have a whole "line" of #14 on a 20 amp. What he is questioning is whether you can have a #14 "tap", or switch leg, off a 20 amp circuit.
The answer is still, and has always been, no.
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03-05-2007, 07:32 PM
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#10
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Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Eighty Four,Pa.15330
Posts: 1,656
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This thread might fall under N.E.C.Art.525.
Bob O.Eighty Four,Pa.15330
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03-05-2007, 08:05 PM
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#11
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Salt Lake City
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I agree, you can never have permanently installed 14 gauge wire connected in any way or means to a 20 amp breaker.
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Joe Momma was here
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03-05-2007, 09:07 PM
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#12
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Member
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Vermont/MA.
Posts: 48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Momma
I agree, you can never have permanently installed 14 gauge wire connected in any way or means to a 20 amp breaker.
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What if it's a motor load ? 
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03-05-2007, 09:29 PM
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#13
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Salt Lake City
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amps are amps, and kcmils are kcmils.
In other words; motor loads have nothing to do with the restraints of the physical world we live in.
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03-05-2007, 09:41 PM
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#14
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Member
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Vermont/MA.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Momma
amps are amps, and kcmils are kcmils.
In other words; motor loads have nothing to do with the restraints of the physical world we live in.
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Do you have a code book,  check out 240.4G,
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03-06-2007, 01:56 AM
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#15
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Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 958
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old joe T
The smartest electician I ever new told me never to believe him or any one. look it up yourself. No exceptions! And I say wireman is right motor overcurrent protection is different, check out the 90 c coulumn of the 310-16
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When ls lunch
Last edited by Bkessler; 03-06-2007 at 01:59 AM.
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03-06-2007, 08:17 PM
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#16
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Senior Member
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Location: Salt Lake City
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So lets see here;
You have 14 gauage wire running a motor on a 20 amp circuit?
And you gave 240.4g as a refferance,
try reading all of 240.4 especially (D)
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Joe Momma was here
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03-06-2007, 08:36 PM
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#17
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Member
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Location: Vermont/MA.
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I did read all of 240.4. Reread 240.4D and the first sentance says Unless specifically permitted in 240.4(E) or 240.4(G), 240.4(G)refers to table 240.4(G) which then refers to many exceptions including motors.
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03-06-2007, 08:39 PM
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#18
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Moderator
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Location: NY State
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Joe, I don't get it. Are you being serious?
What is the first sentence in 240.4(D)?
*EDIT- Sorry 3736, I typed under you.
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04-01-2007, 11:15 PM
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#19
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Junior Member
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 10
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Receptacle Prongs
Does Anyone Know Why Most Receptacle Prongs Have Holes In Them? I've Got My Ideas But Not General Facts From Knowledgeable Old Timers.
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04-01-2007, 11:18 PM
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#20
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Junior Member
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 10
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Receptacle Prongs
The Question I Asked About The Prong Holes Is Actually One Of My Electricians (journeyman) Class Homework Assignment
Last edited by HOYTUSA; 04-01-2007 at 11:20 PM.
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