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Old 03-04-2009, 07:26 PM   #1
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Default 277V/480V vs 347V/600V

I know that 277 is the single leg and neutral from the 3 phase 480.
And I know 347 is the single leg and neutral from the 3 phase 600.

But why does it seem the US and Eastern Canada is 277/480 and Western Canada is 347/600

I have personally never seen or worked on 277/480. All I ever work on is 347/600.

Is there benefits to one over the other? Do they work the same way? Like if I was planning lighting circuits could I plan them the same for 277 as I do 347?

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Old 03-04-2009, 07:45 PM   #2
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I think one of the biggest reasons we use 277/480 around here is because most electric motors are dual voltage. 230/460. This way, they'll work on either a 480 or a 240 system. Almost all of them will work on a 208 volt system as well.

The 347/600 system uses 575 volt motors which are single voltage.

Rob

P.S. I think the best system is used overseas, it's 240/415. The motors have 240 volt windings, 6 leads, and operate on 240 when delta connected, and 415 when wye connected.

Transformers are all 240 volt, and are connected the same way the motors are. Single phase is always 240, no 120/240, no MWBCs, no center taps on transformers, and this voltage is available with either single phase, a 240 delta, or a 240/415 wye.

It just seems simpler, and more versatile.

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Old 03-04-2009, 08:25 PM   #3
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I am from Alberta and I haven't worked with 347/600 yet. I know of sites with it but every site for me so far is 277/480.

Paul.
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Old 03-07-2009, 12:32 PM   #4
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Here in the south, most every textile plant used 575 volts. The problem is with equipment as Rob mentioned. Look in any motor catalog and they have a special section for 575 volt motors. Some do not even build them. Sometimes we had to rewind motors we could have trashed and bought new had it not been for 575 volts.
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Old 03-07-2009, 12:47 PM   #5
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But why does it seem the US and Eastern Canada is 277/480 and Western Canada is 347/600
I heard somewhere that the reason that eastern Canada uses 277/480 was because of the automotive (and other) industry influence from the US. This was strictly hearsay and could be nonsense, but it makes sense to me.
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Old 03-07-2009, 12:56 PM   #6
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Is there benefits to one over the other? Do they work the same way? Like if I was planning lighting circuits could I plan them the same for 277 as I do 347?
There are several large benefits to increasing service voltage, primarily smaller conductors (and less overall metal required in the whole conductive path), smaller service gear and less voltage drop and system loss.

I haven't done the math in a while, but you can put a lot of 2-lamp, T8 ballasts on a single 15 or 20 amp 347 volt circuit. Likewise, you can run even smaller wires to 600 volt motors, heaters, etc that you can with even a 480 volt system.
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Old 03-07-2009, 01:34 PM   #7
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I did not know ontario was western??? the majority of industry here is 600v, however equipment that origionates from the U.S can be 480, and we usually just put in step down xfmrs for that, I have a client that has alot of equipment from different origions, and for some there is a xfmr at the machine for it, like some 600 (ment for Canada), some 480(purchased in the US) a 400 (Chec machine) a 300v (russian machine) with some 240 conversions for dc drives (so 2 xfmrs) . keeps me on my toes knowing whats what when trouble shooting.
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Old 03-07-2009, 01:52 PM   #8
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I did not know ontario was western???
Neither did I. Thanks for clearing that up.
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Old 03-07-2009, 02:58 PM   #9
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I heard somewhere that the reason that eastern Canada uses 277/480 was because of the automotive (and other) industry influence from the US. This was strictly hearsay and could be nonsense, but it makes sense to me.

I had a similar thought about textile machines being 575v, all the mills I have been in around my area have been that voltage, figured it was the way the machines were built.
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Old 03-07-2009, 03:02 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Peter D View Post
There are several large benefits to increasing service voltage, primarily smaller conductors (and less overall metal required in the whole conductive path), smaller service gear and less voltage drop and system loss.

I haven't done the math in a while, but you can put a lot of 2-lamp, T8 ballasts on a single 15 or 20 amp 347 volt circuit. Likewise, you can run even smaller wires to 600 volt motors, heaters, etc that you can with even a 480 volt system.
That make sense. I am only a second year, so most of my knowledge is from working with it, but not how the numbers are arrived at. I do know we split the parkaid into 8 circuits for lighting, each quarter getting a reg and em circuit. But I have been told we could do the whole parkaid in 1 reg and 1 em.

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Originally Posted by paulcanada View Post
I am from Alberta and I haven't worked with 347/600 yet. I know of sites with it but every site for me so far is 277/480.

Paul.
I only do commercial, from reading replies it seems industrial would be much more likely to use 277/480. Maybe thats the difference?




In the states is there much 347/600? I would think hotels, casinos, malls, etc, would see benefits????
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Old 03-07-2009, 03:17 PM   #11
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In the states is there much 347/600? I would think hotels, casinos, malls, etc, would see benefits????
We have no 347Y/600 volt systems in the US. However, once upon a time 600 volt delta was very common in mills and industrial buildings as Randomkiller mentioned. Many of these old buildings are gone in my area, but some still remain and on rare occasion you see an old 600 volt system.
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Old 03-07-2009, 03:23 PM   #12
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That make sense. I am only a second year, so most of my knowledge is from working with it, but not how the numbers are arrived at.
It's easy. Just use Ohm's law.

Multiply the voltage by the amperage. For instance, take a typical 20 amp, single phase circuit.

20 X 120 = 2400 Volt amperes (watts)

20 X 277 = 5540 VA

20 X 347 = 6940 VA


As you can see, the 20 amp, 347 volt circuit can deliver an incredible amount of power with only one circuit.
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Old 03-07-2009, 03:29 PM   #13
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We have no 347Y/600 volt systems in the US. However, once upon a time 600 volt delta was very common in mills and industrial buildings as Randomkiller mentioned. Many of these old buildings are gone in my area, but some still remain and on rare occasion you see an old 600 volt system.
So in vegas the big casino's are 277 lighting? or 120?
Just seems we have a lot of different lighting options with 347v for only portions of canada using it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter D View Post
It's easy. Just use Ohm's law.

Multiply the voltage by the amperage. For instance, take a typical 20 amp, single phase circuit.

20 X 120 = 2400 Volt amperes (watts)

20 X 277 = 5540 VA

20 X 347 = 6940 VA


As you can see, the 20 amp, 347 volt circuit can deliver an incredible amount of power with only one circuit.
Ah ok, I should have known that too. And that really makes it clear why 347 would be an advantage for lighting circuits.
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Old 03-07-2009, 03:41 PM   #14
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The other thing if you use the 347 volt system you have to be carefull when you order a switch make sure you get the correct rating due most of commercal/industrail single pole switch the common type are rated for 120/277 volts max.

In few place it may need a lead time to order them.

However in Europe area

Quote:
I think the best system is used overseas, it's 240/415. The motors have 240 volt windings, 6 leads, and operate on 240 when delta connected, and 415 when wye connected.

Transformers are all 240 volt, and are connected the same way the motors are. Single phase is always 240, no 120/240, no MWBCs, no center taps on transformers, and this voltage is available with either single phase, a 240 delta, or a 240/415 wye.
Rob have right details however for our power supply in Europe we don't have delta system at all only in single phase or three phase supply in wye format only. but once after pass the Customer unit or distubution unit then we can go from there.

Merci,Marc
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Old 03-07-2009, 03:43 PM   #15
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So in vegas the big casino's are 277 lighting? or 120?
Just seems we have a lot of different lighting options with 347v for only portions of canada using it.
Yes, 277Y480, 120Y208 and 120/240 are the standard all across the U.S. As for lighting, if 277 is available in the building, then chances are it's utilized for all the discharge lighting as long as it's within NEC guidelines to use it.

240V center tapped open delta is also fairly common in certain areas.
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Old 03-07-2009, 04:47 PM   #16
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I don't know about the big casinos in Vegas, but I've worked in quite a few of them in Reno. Believe it or not, the vast majority of lighting is 120 volt. About the only 277 you'll find is in the parking lot.

This is actually more of a reflection on the stupidity of electrical engineers than anything else, anytime I see a drawing for one of these places I just shake my head in disbelief!

The service(s) at most of the big casinos is 4160 or higher. One of them is 25KV. There are several transformers that are 277/480 secondary, and a whole bunch of transformers with 480 primaries and 120/208 secondaries. I'd say that more than 1/2 of the total load is utilized at 120 volts. A large portion of this 120 volt load is fluorescent or HID fixtures. I can't help but wonder how much they'd save in transformer losses if these loads were 277!

Completely ridiculous.

Rob
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Old 03-08-2009, 12:18 AM   #17
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I worked in a plastics plant in Waco Tx and the "smart" maintenance man talked them into buying 600 volt motors from Canada at a bargain price. The power co. was pisssed and did not understand why they wanted it. A "special" hard to find xfmr had to be brought in to accomodate them. All worked fine until they needed 277 lighting......geez tranny from 600-480??? More $$$ hard to get. Oh yea, we need outlets 120v.......geez a second tranny..I dont think the owners were too happy now about these canadian motors. Trannys from 600 to 208 not easy to get not to mention the cost. You just cant go down to the local supply and get 600v parts for everything.

US has finally jumped out of the stone age with the multi tap hid ballast 120-480 instead of having 2 different ballast and dont forget the smart electronic ballast 120-277, 1 ballast..26-42 watt 4 pin..........awesome...

The 600 v system ranks up there with the metric system.
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Old 03-08-2009, 08:03 AM   #18
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I worked in a plastics plant in Waco Tx and the "smart" maintenance man talked them into buying 600 volt motors from Canada at a bargain price. The power co. was pisssed and did not understand why they wanted it. A "special" hard to find xfmr had to be brought in to accomodate them. All worked fine until they needed 277 lighting......geez tranny from 600-480??? More $$$ hard to get. Oh yea, we need outlets 120v.......geez a second tranny..I dont think the owners were too happy now about these canadian motors. Trannys from 600 to 208 not easy to get not to mention the cost. You just cant go down to the local supply and get 600v parts for everything.

US has finally jumped out of the stone age with the multi tap hid ballast 120-480 instead of having 2 different ballast and dont forget the smart electronic ballast 120-277, 1 ballast..26-42 watt 4 pin..........awesome...

The 600 v system ranks up there with the metric system.

LOL!! we say the same thing about 480 up here. various transformers are pretty common here, 600 - 208/120, 600 - 240/120 (single phase) 600 to 480/277, 208 - 480/277 (step up) 208 - 600/347 (step up) 240 (3ph) - 600 (have one in my shop for a milling machine). $hit man we can go to a corner store here buy a loaf of bread, quart of milk and a 30 kva transformer. to get any other 3phase (low voltage) service than 208/120 or 600/347 is not easy and expensive, its more to our advantage to get a 600 and step it down internally for whatever equipment we are running, wonder why that place where you are did not just do that, they could have with the motors from here got a step up transformer just as easily.
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Old 03-08-2009, 01:28 PM   #19
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I worked in a plastics plant in Waco Tx and the "smart" maintenance man talked them into buying 600 volt motors from Canada at a bargain price. The power co. was pisssed and did not understand why they wanted it. A "special" hard to find xfmr had to be brought in to accomodate them. All worked fine until they needed 277 lighting......geez tranny from 600-480??? More $$$ hard to get. Oh yea, we need outlets 120v.......geez a second tranny..I dont think the owners were too happy now about these canadian motors. Trannys from 600 to 208 not easy to get not to mention the cost. You just cant go down to the local supply and get 600v parts for everything.

US has finally jumped out of the stone age with the multi tap hid ballast 120-480 instead of having 2 different ballast and dont forget the smart electronic ballast 120-277, 1 ballast..26-42 watt 4 pin..........awesome...

The 600 v system ranks up there with the metric system.

Why would they go 277 lighting and not just 347? And then order a transformer from Canada to get the 120?

I thought more and more engineering and fabrication in the states was going metric?
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Old 03-08-2009, 01:37 PM   #20
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We have no 347Y/600 volt systems in the US. However, once upon a time 600 volt delta was very common in mills and industrial buildings as Randomkiller mentioned. Many of these old buildings are gone in my area, but some still remain and on rare occasion you see an old 600 volt system.
There is a plant less than 10 miles from my home that still has 575 volts and over 500 employees.
The local motor shops fight over their business all the time. It's a money maker for a motor shop.

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