Bidding commercial first time - Electrician Talk - Professional Electrical Contractors Forum

doubleoh7 · 06-23-2010, 01:56 PM

I am bidding my first commercial job. The commercial work that I have done since starting my business 15 months ago has been smaller stuff, T & M. Now I have an opportunity to bid an small eye clinic - optomotrist office.
Bidding residential is pretty much a piece of cake IMO. I have a price per opening established that works for me. I allow 45-50 minutes per opening on most openings. Does anyone use a price per opening for commercial. Or, do you just break the job down into components and assign a time value to each then do your take off for material?

Advice please.

Thank You in advance.

jwjrw · 06-23-2010, 02:02 PM

First I figure all the material.
Next I try to figure labor. I usually figure labor room by room.
Then hvac systems, fire alarm, telephone etc. It may not be the best way but it works for me.

oldtimer · 06-23-2010, 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by doubleoh7

I am bidding my first commercial job. The commercial work that I have done since starting my business 15 months ago has been smaller stuff, T & M. Now I have an opportunity to bid an small eye clinic - optomotrist office.
Bidding residential is pretty much a piece of cake IMO. I have a price per opening established that works for me. I allow 45-50 minutes per opening on most openings. Does anyone use a price per opening for commercial. Or, do you just break the job down into components and assign a time value to each then do your take off for material?

Advice please.

Thank You in advance.

My advice is to check the plans and see what is required. Then break it down, to do your take-off. I do not think it is a good idea to estimate it by the outlet! The G.C. should be able to assist you.

doubleoh7 · 06-23-2010, 02:08 PM

Thanks

The material is a lot easier to figure than the labor, obviously. When you figure each room do you assign a time for each piece of emt?

jwjrw · 06-23-2010, 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by doubleoh7

Thanks

The material is a lot easier to figure than the labor, obviously. When you figure each room do you assign a time for each piece of emt?

Thats is the hard part for sure. I try to picture in my mind each task required and how long it should take. Notice I said "should" take. I always add in a little more as things don't ever go smooth for me.

oldtimer · 06-23-2010, 02:13 PM

Dive in !! Get your feet wet! BEST OF LUCK.

doubleoh7 · 06-23-2010, 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jwjrw

Thats is the hard part for sure. I try to picture in my mind each task required and how long it should take. Notice I said "should" take. I always add in a little more as things don't ever go smooth for me.

Yes, I am just going to have to take some time to do this. I guess I was sort of looking for a shortcut. That could be dangerous! I will break it into room size chunks and then go opening by opening figuring material and assign a time value to each piece.

jwjrw · 06-23-2010, 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by doubleoh7

Yes, I am just going to have to take some time to do this. I guess I was sort of looking for a shortcut. That could be dangerous! I will break it into room size chunks and then go opening by opening figuring material and assign a time value to each piece.

Good luck. I don't care how many times I go over a set of plans I miss something. I'm lucky to have another set of eyes to make sure I got everything. Even then things come up on site that can make or break you if you didn't estimate enough.

mcclary's electrical · 06-23-2010, 02:51 PM

[quote=doubleoh7;245715]Thanks

The material is a lot easier to figure than the labor, obviously. When you figure each room do you assign a time for each piece of emt?[/quote]

In case you're curious:

My software allows 4.2 craft hrs for 100' of empty 1/2" EMT,,,,,,$54 material

4.8 craft hours for 100' 1/2" emt w/ pull line,,,,$57 material
6.2 craft hours for 100' 1/2" w/ (3) 12's,,,,,,$95 material

that w/ 2 box connectors, 10 straps, 9 couplings

pm me your details I'll give you a ballpark

**480sparky** · 06-23-2010, 03:03 PM

If this is being done in a strip mall, check to see if the owner (landlord) is providing anything. Some provide a furnace & AC already, so you don't need to bid that. Sometimes the panel is already set in place and energized, sometimes you need to complete the feeder and set a panel. Sometimes you need to come from the meter stack with your own raceway all the way.

Sometimes the landlord will not allow a tenant to do anything with the fire alarm and sprinkler system... they will require their own subs to do that so it prevents any warranty & liability issues.

Temp lighting and temp power may or may not be provided as well.

Also inquire about the schedule. If they want if done by Oct. 1, that's fine. But the price goes up if they want to open July 5th.

doubleoh7 · 06-23-2010, 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 480sparky

If this is being done in a strip mall, check to see if the owner (landlord) is providing anything. Some provide a furnace & AC already, so you don't need to bid that. Sometimes the panel is already set in place and energized, sometimes you need to complete the feeder and set a panel. Sometimes you need to come from the meter stack with your own raceway all the way.

Sometimes the landlord will not allow a tenant to do anything with the fire alarm and sprinkler system... they will require their own subs to do that so it prevents any warranty & liability issues.

Temp lighting and temp power may or may not be provided as well.

Also inquire about the schedule. If they want if done by Oct. 1, that's fine. But the price goes up if they want to open July 5th.

No strip mall. 29' x 62' building - new construction.

**480sparky** · 06-23-2010, 03:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by doubleoh7

No strip mall. 29' x 62' building - new construction.

Then I'd check out things like local ordinances for lot lighting, signs, etc. I've run across plans sent out for bid purposes that have never been submitted for plan review by the AHJ.

JohnR · 06-23-2010, 03:34 PM

Not saying you don't know this already, but make sure you figure for hospital grade MC in any rooms that a doctor might be dealing with a patient.

Don't matter if it is a couch in a phyc's office. up to 7-1/2' has to be hospital grade. lightswitches and outlets.
I know a guy who forgot this and got bit.

Didn't hear if it was the doctor or a patient that bit him though.

doubleoh7 · 06-23-2010, 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnR

Not saying you don't know this already, but make sure you figure for hospital grade MC in any rooms that a doctor might be dealing with a patient.

Don't matter if it is a couch in a phyc's office. up to 7-1/2' has to be hospital grade. lightswitches and outlets.
I know a guy who forgot this and got bit.

Didn't hear if it was the doctor or a patient that bit him though.

Good point. I don't think that applies here. I said eye clinic, but what I really meant is optomotrists office. The kind of place that you go for contacts and glasses.

JohnR · 06-23-2010, 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by doubleoh7

Good point. I don't think that applies here. I said eye clinic, but what I really meant is optomotrists office. The kind of place that you go for contacts and glasses.

Well I did an Optometrist/Ophthalmologist office and anyplace there was a seat for a guest/patient to receive care, I had to put in the HG wire.

Stupid, I know but it didn't matter if it was just the area where glasses were fitted. Had to have it.

knowshorts · 06-23-2010, 05:56 PM

I use a spreadsheet. Item 1 being distribution. Then that is broken up into smaller sections. Install panel 1, feeders for panel 1, terminate panel 1, etc. Then Outlets, broken up into sections. Home runs, rough, finish, etc. Then Switching. Home runs, rough, finish, etc., Lighting. Install, lamps, T24, emergency, etc. HVAC, Plumbing, etc. Don't forget Supervisory. This category has everything else. material acquisition, job set up and removal, demo, temp power, meeting, etc. This is by no means complete. The way I've set mine up, all those tasks are in my vertical column. I can then use the horizontal columns for dates and keep daily track of hours used compared to hours bid.

Read 517 though and through to see where and how it applies to your situation.

Wingnut · 06-23-2010, 06:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by doubleoh7

Thanks

The material is a lot easier to figure than the labor, obviously. When you figure each room do you assign a time for each piece of emt?

Most of that type of work here is MC
The only EMT is phone stubs 3/4

knowshorts · 06-23-2010, 06:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wingnut

Most of that type of work here is MC
The only EMT is phone stubs 3/4

Ring and string is even faster and cheaper.

Mrtofu82 · 06-23-2010, 07:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by doubleoh7

Good point. I don't think that applies here. I said eye clinic, but what I really meant is optomotrists office. The kind of place that you go for contacts and glasses.

Yea, I don't think for the office area it applies. But if there is an exam room, I believe you do need hospital grade material.

chiefestimator · 06-23-2010, 07:58 PM

Residential and commercial estimating are very different. Some of my career has been in residential, but most has been in commercial/industrial.

The method you use (by the hole, or unit pricing), is a very popular method for residential estimating. It does not work for commercial estimating for a number of reasons, including interference from other trades, lack of coordination by the GC, and the configuration of the projects to name a few.

Most comercial estimates are done the longhand method, where all of the work represented on the plans is counted and measured. Light fixtures, outlets, switches, panels, disconnects and generators are the types of things that are counted. Branch (1/2" thru 1") and feeders (1-1/4" thru 6") are measured. In some parts of the country (mostly the east) branch is averaged, such as 20' per receptacle. This entire process is called the takeoff.

If you are doing this by hand, the next step is to "explode" the counts. and list them on a pricing sheet. For instance, (10) 2 gang switches equal (10) boxes, (10) rings, (20) switches and (10) plates. Some people add some miscellaneous things like grounding pigtails and wirenuts.

When you are finished each line on your price sheet needs to be priced, labored, extended and totaled. The totals get transfered to a "Recap" where quotes, subs, rentals, misc and markups are added. As you can see, it is quite a bit more involved than residential.

I tried to attach a sample Excel spreadsheet, but was advised it was an illegal file type. If you are interested, contact me privately and I can email it to you.

Of course, there are quite a few software packages to help with the process. As someone new to commercial estimating, I would not advise spending money on the big dollar packages. If you want to try some out, there are a few based on subscriptions, so you can try them out for a few months to see if they work for you.

Another thing about commercial work is specifications. Sometimes they are on the plans, and other times they are in a seperate book. Ignore them at you own risk. Because of the current economic conditions, many contractors are ignoring the specs and bidding on the cheapest materials and methods. Some get away with, but many do not. If you are going to ignore the specs, write qualifications into your proposal, such as "This project will be wired with MC rather than EMT as specified".

Lastly, commercial estimating can get complex. Be carefull as you get into larger projects.

OK, I'm done with this book. Good luck