ceiling fan near a sprinkler head - Electrician Talk - Professional Electrical Contractors Forum

SuperRick · 05-07-2009, 03:42 PM

Here's a new one! Got a call from a customer who wanted his new ceiling fan installed in the middle of the master bedroom and hoped there was wiring for a fan under that round 2" white plate in the middle of the drywall ceiling (10 floor condo building). When I explained that was a sprinkler head and would be very expensive to move he replied can we install the fan beside it. I said no but I would check the code to see how far it needs to be from it. Haven't found anything in the NEC anyone had this problem or know how much spacing is needed. That got me thinking about another building where there is a sprinkler head installed over the electrical service in the basement. (I wouldn't want to be near that if the head went off). What about that?

**Speedy Petey** · 05-07-2009, 04:02 PM

I WOULD want to be near it when it went off because I would likely be on fire at the time!

This is obviously not an NEC issue but is a fire code issue. I don't know the details but I do know you CANNOT have a fan or anything else under or near those heads.

sparky456 · 05-07-2009, 04:15 PM

I would say the most important issue to worry about would be not to obstruct the spray of water from sprinkler head. The Sprinklers are engineered and placed so they can pretty much cover the square footage of the room. If there was a fire in that room I think the last thing people would worry about is fan getting wet.

Jeff000 · 05-07-2009, 05:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sparky456

I would say the most important issue to worry about would be not to obstruct the spray of water from sprinkler head. The Sprinklers are engineered and placed so they can pretty much cover the square footage of the room. If there was a fire in that room I think the last thing people would worry about is fan getting wet.

The pressure would probably just bust the blades the instant it turned on.
Looking up, I have a sprinkler head ~14" from the box my ceiling fan is mounted on. And in the master bedroom its the same thing.

At work, they move the heads when our lights are in the way, so I dont think placement is a huge deal as long as its in the general area??

And why do they put sprinkler heads in electrical rooms? the only stuff in there that will burn is the insulation really, and I would argue that adding water at that point would just make things worse. Unless they put them in there to turn off the fire pump, but if thats the case someone should tell them there is a better way to do it.

sparky456 · 05-07-2009, 06:20 PM

The same issue arises in the electrical room. The main concern is not getting electrical parts wet. If there was a fire in the electrical room obviously everything in there would be extremely hot. The function of the sprinkler is to go off from the temperature of fire, not smoke. In turn this will keep the temperature in that room down with the water so the structure can stay intact longer. Steel turns into spaghetti very quickly. Fire codes pretty much take presidents to everything. Even our code book that is from NFPA makes a statement that the installations that we make are intended to be the safest not the most functional. In this case there is an electrical hazard with the water, but i think that a building collapsing prematurely is bigger

Jeff000 · 05-07-2009, 06:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sparky456

The same issue arises in the electrical room. The main concern is not getting electrical parts wet. If there was a fire in the electrical room obviously everything in there would be extremely hot. The function of the sprinkler is to go off from the temperature of fire, not smoke. In turn this will keep the temperature in that room down with the water so the structure can stay intact longer. Steel turns into spaghetti very quickly. Fire codes pretty much take presidents to everything. Even our code book that is from NFPA makes a statement that the installations that we make are intended to be the safest not the most functional. In this case there is an electrical hazard with the water, but i think that a building collapsing prematurely is bigger

Makes sense, but depends on the building a bit. Where I am working, 4 sprinkler heads in the electrical room, room is 8" slab floor, 16" slab ceiling, and 8" walls, all structural concrete, the wall separating the gen set from the main electrical is 10" block, its other walls and stuff are same as electrical room.
I would still argue those sprinklers going off would do more harm then good if all the panels short out. I have seen how far down the line that a short like that can cause problems to. It would also cause the fire pump to stop causing ALL sprinkler heads to stop. I would think excessive damage to the electrical room would be acceptable for keeping the fire pump running even a real short time longer.

randomkiller · 05-07-2009, 07:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff000

Makes sense, but depends on the building a bit. Where I am working, 4 sprinkler heads in the electrical room, room is 8" slab floor, 16" slab ceiling, and 8" walls, all structural concrete, the wall separating the gen set from the main electrical is 10" block, its other walls and stuff are same as electrical room.
I would still argue those sprinklers going off would do more harm then good if all the panels short out. I have seen how far down the line that a short like that can cause problems to. It would also cause the fire pump to stop causing ALL sprinkler heads to stop. I would think excessive damage to the electrical room would be acceptable for keeping the fire pump running even a real short time longer.

The sprinkler heads will only go off when they reach @160F, if the room has as much concrete as described, I doubt they would go off unless there was a pile of copy paper or something along those lines on fire directly below them.

william1978 · 05-07-2009, 07:23 PM

Here the fan has to be 5' away from the fan. I belive it could be found in the fire code or maybe the building code.

Jeff000 · 05-07-2009, 08:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by randomkiller

The sprinkler heads will only go off when they reach @160F, if the room has as much concrete as described, I doubt they would go off unless there was a pile of copy paper or something along those lines on fire directly below them.

Could panels starting to overload from shorts (from a fire somewhere else) get the room that hot??

robnj772 · 05-07-2009, 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by william1978

Here the fan has to be 5' away from the fan. I belive it could be found in the fire code or maybe the building code.

so how does one keep a fan away from a fan?

william1978 · 05-07-2009, 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by robnj772

so how does one keep a fan away from a fan?

Damn, you got me!

It should have been sprinkler head has to be 5' away from the ceiling fan.

MechanicalDVR · 05-07-2009, 10:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff000

Could panels starting to overload from shorts (from a fire somewhere else) get the room that hot??

Air is a great insulator, that being known I think it would be very unlikely that a short inside a panel could radiate enough heat to set off a sprinkler head a few feet away on the ceiling. I had been a volunteer firefighter for a number of years and have yet to see a head go off in an electrical closet. As for heads in mechanical rooms they tend to have higher trip points, the heads with the small glass red fluid filled vials are higher temp than the plain metal trips.

sparky456 · 05-07-2009, 10:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff000

Makes sense, but depends on the building a bit. Where I am working, 4 sprinkler heads in the electrical room, room is 8" slab floor, 16" slab ceiling, and 8" walls, all structural concrete, the wall separating the gen set from the main electrical is 10" block, its other walls and stuff are same as electrical room.
I would still argue those sprinklers going off would do more harm then good if all the panels short out. I have seen how far down the line that a short like that can cause problems to. It would also cause the fire pump to stop causing ALL sprinkler heads to stop. I would think excessive damage to the electrical room would be acceptable for keeping the fire pump running even a real short time longer.

Everything expands in heat Even concrete. Enough things to burn in that room and the top 5 feet in that room could be over 1000 degrees

goose134 · 05-07-2009, 10:20 PM

Quote:

As for heads in mechanical rooms they tend to have higher trip points, the heads with the small glass red fluid filled vials are higher temp than the plain metal trips.

This rings a bell. I believe that sprink heads are NOT allowed in the main service room. If they are allowed they have to be a higher temp. rating. I think the fluid is actually green. I do know for distribution closets, the head has to be a dead end. No T's or any other junctions.

SuperRick · 05-08-2009, 03:09 PM

Thanks to everyone who responded. After logging onto the NFPA website and catching up on my monthly reading I came to the conclusion that checking with Metro Fire and the local AHD was in my best interest (the fire code gave several distances and instances and circumstances, from 1' to 5' depending on the measurements and clearances of the fan and other factors, good grief). The local guys said stay at 18" minimum from the head and everyone would be happy (nice and simple). When I asked about the sprinkler heads over service equipment that opened a bag of worms, it seems they all had different opinions on that one (as we did).

Sonny1027 · 05-08-2009, 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuperRick

The local guys said stay at 18" minimum from the head and everyone would be happy (nice and simple).

Hi Rick,

Was the 18" minimum distance from the center of the outlet box or from the edge of the fan blade?

Regards,

SuperRick · 05-09-2009, 11:09 AM

They said to the edge of the fan motor or canopy was best since they were concerned about blockage of the spray patern. They have had studies about blades being near or under the sprinkler and weren't as concerned about that unless the fan was abnormally large.

Sonny1027 · 05-10-2009, 11:27 AM

Rick.......Thanks for the reply.

Regards,

steelersman · 05-10-2009, 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff000

The pressure would probably just bust the blades the instant it turned on.

I just really find it amusing that you think that the pressure from the sprinkler would knock the fan blades off. It's not a firehose. At least not any of the ones I've seen go off. Maybe in Canada they have that much pressure.

Bob Badger · 05-10-2009, 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steelersman

I just really find it amusing that you think that the pressure from the sprinkler would knock the fan blades off. It's not a firehose. At least not any of the ones I've seen go off. Maybe in Canada they have that much pressure.

I don't know what you have seen but the sprinkler heads I have seen go off have quite a bit of pressure. The last Lowe's I worked at the fire pump maintained 160 to 175 PSI.

I have also been at FM Global where they do full scale testing of sprinklers, my money is on sprinkler head.