Direct burial wire nuts.. - Page 12 - Electrician Talk - Professional Electrical Contractors Forum

user4818 · 04-26-2011, 09:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by B4T

UF cable is rated for direct burial.. the conductors inside of the cable have to be rated for the same environment..

That's absurd. If I bury PVC conduit, which is rated for DB, do I need to install direct burial conductors in it as well? Of course not.

Quote:

You can't get to the conductors without removing the outer covering and IMO it has to be the same construction material that makes up the cable assembly itself..

Again this is absurd.

Quote:

THWN would be rated for direct burial if it was part of a cable assembly labeled UF.. since it is moisture resistant

If you say so.

THWN is not listed or rated for direct burial.

Magnettica · 04-26-2011, 09:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter D

OK, let me state it again, so you get it this time - if you don't use a listed direct burial method to splice UF cable, then you need to use a box.

So far nobody has been able to prove that these wire nuts are listed for direct burial use with UF cable. Therefore, you need to use a box.

Is that clear enough for you?

The question is does the box need to be listed for use with fertilizer.

user4818 · 04-26-2011, 09:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magnettica

The question is does the box need to be listed for use with fertilizer.

user4818 · 04-26-2011, 09:36 PM

I'm out. Time for bed.

Big John · 04-26-2011, 09:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by B4T

....THWN would be rated for direct burial if it was part of a cable assembly labeled UF.. since it is moisture resistant

I haven't been following this whole thing, but I will say that a water-resistant rating is totally different than direct-burial rating.

Very often SJ and SO cords are type "W" water resistant and without a doubt if you bury that cord it will rot away in pretty short order.

I don't know what has to be done to make insulated DB rated, but it's more than just a water proofing.

-John

Magnettica · 04-26-2011, 09:39 PM

^^

"Carlon box expert"

HARRY304E · 04-26-2011, 09:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter D

I'm out. Time for bed.

Don't go to bed..

nrp3 · 04-26-2011, 09:48 PM

Beat this horse some more tomorrow?

HARRY304E · 04-26-2011, 09:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nrp3

Beat this horse some more tomorrow?

What type of horse is it..

Mike_586 · 04-26-2011, 09:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by B4T

DB wire nuts don't need a box and can be in direct contact with dirt..

Let me see if I got this straight. Your saying that since UF-B is listed for direct burial, so are all the THHN conductors contained inside.

Then by your logic it would be absolutely no different to take a piece of PVC jacketed MC rated for direct burial and making splices to the THHN/THWN conductors using those DB wire nuts. Because the jacketed MC assembly is UL rated for direct burial, then by extension so are the inner THNN conductors that magically maintain the direct burial rating when they extend past the protective jacket/armor.

Am I following your logic correctly?

**Dennis Alwon** · 04-26-2011, 10:01 PM

From UL White Book

Quote:

CONDUCTOR TYPES
Sealed wire-connector systems are intended for use with Types USE,
RHW, XHHW, RW90 EP, RW90 XLPE or TWU, 30 AWG through 2000 kcmil
copper or aluminum conductors with currents not exceeding the ampacity
of insulated conductors rated either 75 or 90°C and intended for use at 600
V or less.
When so marked, sealed wire-connector systems may also be intended for
use with conductors of single- or multiple-conductor underground feeder
cable (Type UF), golf course sprinkler cable, underground low-energy cable,
irrigation cable, or other cable with insulation acceptable for direct burial,
below grade use, or wet locations.

From Ideal

Quote:

Usage

WARNING:
One time use only. Do not reuse
Wiring must comply with all applicable electrical codes.
For use on copper wire only. Do not use on aluminum wire.
Not for use in continuous submersion applications.

Also From Ideal

Quote:

Applications

Low-voltage landscape lighting
Lawn-sprinkler control systems
Sump and well pump installations
Ejection pumps
Valve control boxes
Utility tracer line applications

HARRY304E · 04-26-2011, 10:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big John

I haven't been following this whole thing, but I will say that a water-resistant rating is totally different than direct-burial rating.

Very often SJ and SO cords are type "W" water resistant and without a doubt if you bury that cord it will rot away in pretty short order.

I don't know what has to be done to make insulated DB rated, but it's more than just a water proofing.

-John

300.5 ( E )States that conductors shall permitted to be spliced Direct buried.
So what type of conductors are they if not with the designation "w".?

(E) Splices and Taps.

Direct-buried conductors or cables
shall be permitted to be spliced or tapped without the use of
splice boxes. The splices or taps shall be made in accordance

with 110.14(B).

B4T · 04-26-2011, 10:07 PM

[quote=Mike_586;436269]Let me see if I got this straight. Your saying that since UF-B is listed for direct burial, so are all the THHN conductors contained inside.

Then by your logic it would be absolutely no different to take a piece of PVC jacketed MC rated for direct burial and making splices to the THHN/THWN conductors using those DB wire nuts. Because the jacketed MC assembly is UL rated for direct burial, then by extension so are the inner THNN conductors that magically maintain the direct burial rating when they extend past the protective jacket/armor.

Yep.. you got it..

(E) Splices and Taps. Direct-buried conductors or cables
shall be permitted to be spliced or tapped without the use of
splice boxes. The splices or taps shall be made in accordance
with 110.14(B).

DB wire nuts are a UL listed splice cap..

B4T · 04-26-2011, 10:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dennis Alwon

From UL White Book

CONDUCTOR TYPES
Sealed wire-connector systems are intended for use with Types USE,
RHW, XHHW, RW90 EP, RW90 XLPE or TWU, 30 AWG through 2000 kcmil
copper or aluminum conductors with currents not exceeding the ampacity
of insulated conductors rated either 75 or 90°C and intended for use at 600
V or less.
When so marked, sealed wire-connector systems may also be intended for
use with conductors of single- or multiple-conductor underground feeder
cable (Type UF), golf course sprinkler cable, underground low-energy cable,
irrigation cable, or other cable with insulation acceptable for direct burial,
below grade use, or wet locations.

Dennis.. so now do you agree that DB wire nuts are code compliant and would pass inspection?

Mike_586 · 04-26-2011, 10:24 PM

For some reason this one has me a little engaged. I guess being at home for the last few months, and the weather sucking bad today, I just didn't have much else to do

(Shoulder is mostly healed up and I'm cleared to go back to work in a couple weeks...I'm looking forward to it.)

Back to the topic at hand....

Most of the specs I saw heavily suggest the inner conductors in UF-B are either THHN or THWN, several wholesalers descriptions described it as THHN. Just about every manufacturer listed only the outer jacket as the one with the extra moisture, mildew and sunlight resistant properties.

Comparing THHN or any other wet/dry type of conductor to direct burial conductors like USE-2, RWU, TWU or single conductor UF-B to name a few and there's a pretty massive difference in insulation thickness. A #14 of any of them would look more like a #10 to #8 THNN.

There's just absolutely no way those conductors in UF-B could be mistaken for any single conductors I've ever seen that are direct burial rated.

A dozen pages without straying off topic...

...this has got to be some kind of ET record

**Dennis Alwon** · 04-26-2011, 10:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by B4T

Dennis.. so know do you agree that DB wire nuts are code compliant and would pass inspection?

Now I agree that are compliant and would pass inspection but not if the uf conductors are exposed.

Look at the applications-- doesn't seem to even allow line voltage underground. Not sure whether they listed all applications or not. Also the usage says to follow all codes. I still say the conductors are not DB so you cannot leave the UF stripped underground without a listed splice kit.

B4T · 04-26-2011, 10:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike_586

For some reason this one has me a little engaged. I guess being at home for the last few months, and the weather sucking bad today, I just didn't have much else to do

(Shoulder is mostly healed up and I'm cleared to go back to work in a couple weeks...I'm looking forward to it.)

Back to the topic at hand....

Most of the specs I saw heavily suggest the inner conductors in UF-B are either THHN or THWN, several wholesalers descriptions described it as THHN. Just about every manufacturer listed only the outer jacket as the one with the extra moisture, mildew and sunlight resistant properties.

Comparing THHN or any other wet/dry type of conductor to direct burial conductors like USE-2, RWU, TWU or single conductor UF-B to name a few and there's a pretty massive difference in insulation thickness. A #14 of any of them would look more like a #10 to #8 THNN.

There's just absolutely no way those conductors in UF-B could be mistaken for any single conductors I've ever seen that are direct burial rated.

A dozen pages without straying off topic...
...this has got to be some kind of ET record

It all goes back to the rating of the conductors inside the UF.. this spells out the requirements for those conductors..

340.112 Insulation. The conductors of Type UF shall be
one of the moisture-resistant types listed in Table
310.13(A) that is suitable for branch-circuit wiring or one
that is identified for such use. Where installed as a substitute
wiring method for NM cable, the conductor insulation
shall be rated 90°C (194°F).

Jlarson · 04-26-2011, 10:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dennis Alwon

Look at the applications-- doesn't seem to even allow line voltage underground. Not sure whether they listed all applications or not.

I think that applications list is more of a target list. Like hey buy our nuts, they are perfect for applications a, b, and c because of reasons x, y, and z.

Jlarson · 04-26-2011, 10:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by B4T

Dennis.. so now do you agree that DB wire nuts are code compliant and would pass inspection?

I'm gonna add some fuel to the fire here. The part in the UL section about multi-conductor UF may actually be referring to un-jacketed multi-conductor. Its separate UF conductors, marked as such twisted together into a cable.

HARRY304E · 04-26-2011, 10:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike_586

For some reason this one has me a little engaged. I guess being at home for the last few months, and the weather sucking bad today, I just didn't have much else to do

(Shoulder is mostly healed up and I'm cleared to go back to work in a couple weeks...I'm looking forward to it.)

Back to the topic at hand....

Most of the specs I saw heavily suggest the inner conductors in UF-B are either THHN or THWN, several wholesalers descriptions described it as THHN. Just about every manufacturer listed only the outer jacket as the one with the extra moisture, mildew and sunlight resistant properties.

Comparing THHN or any other wet/dry type of conductor to direct burial conductors like USE-2, RWU, TWU or single conductor UF-B to name a few and there's a pretty massive difference in insulation thickness. A #14 of any of them would look more like a #10 to #8 THNN.

There's just absolutely no way those conductors in UF-B could be mistaken for any single conductors I've ever seen that are direct burial rated.

A dozen pages without straying off topic...

...this has got to be some kind of ET record

This is only page 5 for me ,

I have mine set for 50 posts per page just for major League Threads like this..