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Old 07-10-2008, 05:41 AM   #21
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I think brian john summed it up eloquently.

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Old 07-10-2008, 06:16 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nick View Post
Richrock , you say your company sells and installs these , can you give us input on how it works or just send us the us patent number off the product so i can check it out , this would be a new area of interest to me and i might learn how these power savers work .not and expert on it, but were not completely convinced on the circuit or function of your product . i know the power company installs watt miser stuff if you want it ,but it just turns water heaters off meaning during peak loads times , but does not change the actual power to you home , if thats what it is for $600.00 dollars i can install one or more time clocks on my water heater or other loads , and any load in my home to save power or just turn down my t stat , or install low wattage lighting in my lamps and fixtures ? so how does it work ? give us a contact of manufacturer ill be glad to listen to what they have to say . and will not tell them you gave me the contact . its hot down here in florida and were behind the times .
I will post the picture of once again. All that was inside the SEALED box was capacitors and reactors…. nothing magic. It is just a marketing scam by some MBA salesman. It is just a power factor correction device in a SEALED consumer convenient box.
It was obvious that the company did not want anybody to open it up to look inside because it did take some work to open it up. There were hidden screws and a lot of glue to remove in order to get the cover off.

Attachment 555

Attachment 556

Last edited by John; 07-28-2008 at 04:01 PM.
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Old 07-10-2008, 03:07 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nick View Post
Richrock , you say your company sells and installs these , can you give us input on how it works or just send us the us patent number off the product so i can check it out , this would be a new area of interest to me and i might learn how these power savers work .not and expert on it, but were not completely convinced on the circuit or function of your product . i know the power company installs watt miser stuff if you want it ,but it just turns water heaters off meaning during peak loads times , but does not change the actual power to you home , if thats what it is for $600.00 dollars i can install one or more time clocks on my water heater or other loads , and any load in my home to save power or just turn down my t stat , or install low wattage lighting in my lamps and fixtures ? so how does it work ? give us a contact of manufacturer ill be glad to listen to what they have to say . and will not tell them you gave me the contact . its hot down here in florida and were behind the times .
You should be able to find out everything you want to know here: http://www.power-save1200.com/
PM me if you have any specific questions.
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Old 07-10-2008, 06:31 PM   #24
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first i agree with John , but its not that your product does not save small amounts of wattage ,but how your company gives percentages of saved power each year or monthly to a persons home they dont know? , i know about power factor correction , ask your company how they determine the volt /amps , watts and the vars of each install they perform as its a must do problem to correct power factor , meaning that capacitor in that box and that inductor in that box better match my load my inductance on each motor load in my home. how do they get there info to match a persons home they never have seen before ? you need total dc resistance of load and total ac reactance do they do a power summary on it they dont ! so you can save power if the device does not match the load i dont think so , its called impedance matching ,actually the capacitor people think it stores power it does but also uses power on charge and dischage gives a higher increase voltage to your line this is real bad for you electronics like this computer iam using , if you monitor your voltage of your home service you will see it gos up and down all day this can effect your energy saver box it may use power on its own when you not using your power . but that said ,i feel if its not designed for each application meaning each home its not a good thing . and in some homes it could cost you more because of this impedance mismatching sorry i hope i did not offend anyone just my input on this subject .

Last edited by nick; 07-10-2008 at 08:06 PM. Reason: spelling never was good at english
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Old 07-13-2008, 07:22 AM   #25
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well guys here it gos , no email i called the company to look into how it saves money and guess what they would not let me talk , got put on hold they will get back with me ! but i get that alot and i dont really care .so i looked at johns box in the pictures , look at the coils how there are wound inside its sloppy work and the inductors physical locations are randomly placed which magnetically impede each other at 60hz these should be wound on a fero core its low frequency , just a choke coil which does nothing at all to save energy its for power factor correction just filters the ac incoming or backfeed meaning does not effect phase shift totally. the size of these coils meaning awg size and the number of turns is a misconception meaning if your going to correct power factor you better have a inductor coil to carry the load input to output linear , and have some inductance like henrys to correct phase angle of the ac wave voltage to current timeline designed with the caps and maybe cancel out or maybe actually work ? or wound properly on core of some kind like a air gap core fero type . meaning the diameter of the coil needs to be larger its not high freq air core stuff, its low freq 60hz 240v or 208 v 480 volt stuff, they dont do much air wound, i cant see the caps or what the rated size is , maybe john can tell me the mfd and voltage ratings on these and give a drawing of this circuit of how they are wired paralled or series, from what i can see there wired to just get by !the minium voltage for voltage maxed out on these caps . thats why they burn out. check out the crimps stake ons never use a crimp like this on protective equipment . no fault protection which you want is given here . caps should always be rated at a higher voltage then the service incoming voltage . whats the rated voltage of these, hey john dont waste you time! look at the mov s they are too small for protection of a strike even a near spike these are tiny electronic mov types used in small dc stuff thats why it burns up trips out , not to protect your service looks like they are series wired up to increase the voltage rating tacky work , ill say 250 v , 350 v volts are these series wired or parralled that right john? cant tell if the coils or chokes are wound on a core or not ? and checked the us patent but i can not get the circuit they will not show me the circuit. this is just how i think and i maybe out of line and incorrect but yes in all do respect its junk.meaning to the fact that it saves energy only, just a little bit of energy , it may smooth out ripple or harmonics but thats it .

Last edited by nick; 07-13-2008 at 01:13 PM. Reason: needed to add just a little bit spelling
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Old 07-13-2008, 09:07 AM   #26
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Nick, thank you for your post, but please hit the "enter" key once in a while. Paragraphs make it a lot easier to read.
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Old 07-13-2008, 09:44 AM   #27
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Rick your company sells snake oil, HOODOO VOODOO CRAP. Proven time and again.

If and when you can tell me how you save one consumer one red cent, I'll faint for sure.

Oh and power factor penalties are not imposed residential services.

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Old 07-13-2008, 10:40 AM   #28
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sorry about the way i write , i get going and cant stop ill space out my writing better next time , that last post i actually didnt get to say all i wanted too, its a lot more complex area then just that , iam not a engineer yet ,well like i tell my boss at work i went to school to be an electrician if they wanted me to write correctly they should have hired a secretary like to see her pull in feeders . sorry john hope you can understand the post,sometimes i dont write what i know or mean to say.
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Old 07-13-2008, 11:10 AM   #29
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Nick:

I struggle with writing (typing) as well, but you post though a bit difficult to read was very informative.

The contractors selling this bunk should have their licenses pulled. Either they are dishonest, or do not have a clue.
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Old 10-21-2008, 06:05 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnJ0906 View Post
Nick, thank you for your post, but please hit the "enter" key once in a while. Paragraphs make it a lot easier to read.


Basically JJ, Nick's last sentence in post#25, and brian john's last sentence in post #27 says it all
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Old 10-21-2008, 09:09 PM   #31
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Sounds like a hoax to me.
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Old 10-23-2008, 06:09 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by 76nemo View Post
Basically JJ, Nick's last sentence in post#25, and brian john's last sentence in post #27 says it all
Agreed.
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Old 10-23-2008, 06:37 AM   #33
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And no response from Rick regarding this device's benefits?

I am willing to be proven wrong!
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Old 02-23-2009, 10:06 AM   #34
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Default IMPOSTERS selling the KVAR 1200

I do sell a product called the KVAR 1200. This is not to be confussed with all the other knock off brands.

Mr. Gregory Taylor started working on this idea in 1976. Moving into the 1980's, the vision for the company was started, and by 1995 he had invented the KVAR Energy Controller (KEC) Unit and received the patent.
We are NOT affiliated nor do business with these vendors that are manufacturing and/or marketing our KEC under another name:
  • Power-Save 1200
  • Green Machine


    Vortex Power Products

  • Titan Energy
  • P.E.F.L Inc.
  • Kilowatt Nanny
  • Power Shaver **
  • Chiefo Electric
  • Larry Gillen and Joe Chiefo
  • Tri State Energy Solutions
  • Power Saving Solutions
  • MRD Solutions
  • EMAXX 3000 *
  • Power Flow 1200
  • Powerhouse Construction
  • Vortex Generators
  • PowerwoRx e3
  • ActivTek Environmental
  • V-Blox
  • Mary Cavanaugh
  • EZ Energy Savings

* Not UL listed or NASA tested.
**Shawn Bennet, Dave Stewart, Rob Leroy, of Power Shaver Corporation are not affiliated with KVAR Energy Savings nor are authorized distributors please contact KVAR Energy Savings at anytime for more information




Depending upon the rate structure of your electric utility, you may be able to save a substantial amount of money on your electric bill. Pay-back period for an equipment purchase including installation cost may be six months up to three years. Utility rate structures that account for reactive power consumption, by either a KVA or var demand usage, or a power factor penalty are the ones that can provide this pay-back. Other ancillary benefits to be gained by optimizing power factor are, lower energy losses, better voltage regulation and released system capacity. This page explains the fundamentals of power factor and how KEC Units can benefit you.

All electric equipment requires "vars" - a term used by electric power engineers to describe the reactive or magnetizing power required by the inductive characteristics of electrical equipment. These inductive characteristics are more pronounced in motors and transformers, and therefore, can be quite significant in industrial facilities. The flow of vars, or reactive power, through a watt-hour meter will not effect the meter reading, but the flow of vars through the power system will result in energy losses on both the utility and the industrial facility. Some utilities charge for these vars in the form of a penalty, or KVA demand charge, to justify the cost for lost energy and the additional conductor and transformer capacity required to carry the vars. In addition to energy losses, var flow can also cause excessive voltage drop, which may have to be optimized by either the application of KEC Units, or other more expensive equipment, such as load-tap changing transformers, synchronous motors, and synchronous condensers.



Figure 1 - Power Factor Triangle

The power triangle shown in figure 1, is the simplest way to understand the effects of reactive power. The figure illustrates the relationship of active (real) and reactive (imaginary or magnetizing) power. The active power (represented by the horizontal leg) is the actual power, or watts that produces real work. This component, is the energy transfer component, which represents fuel burned at the power plant. The reactive power, or magnetizing power, (represented by the vertical leg of the upper or lower triangle) is the power required to produce the magnetic fields to enable the real work to be done. Without magnetizing power, transformers, conductors, motors, and even resistors and capacitors would not be able to operate. Reactive power is normally supplied by generators, capacitors and synchronous motors. The longest leg of the triangle (on the upper or lower triangle), labeled total power, represents the vector sum of the reactive power and real power components. Mathematically, this is equal to:



Electric power engineers often call total power, kVA, MVA, apparent power, or complex power. Some utilities measure this total power, (usually averaged over a 15 minute load period) and charge a monthly fee or tariff for the highest fifteen minute average load reading in the month. This tariff is usually added to the energy charge or kilowatt-hour charge. This type of billing is often called kva demand billing and can be quite costly to an industrial facility. KEC Units can save your company money by decreasing your reactive power component supplied by the utility to near zero vars.

The power triangle and the equation above show, that as the reactive power component is decreased by adding KEC Units, the total power will also decrease. This is shown by the decreased length of the dashed lines in the power triangle as the reactive power component approaches zero. Therefore, adding KEC Units, which will supply reactive power locally, can reduce your total power and monthly kva demand charge.

The angle "phi" in the power triangle is called the power factor angle and is mathematically equal to:



The ratio of the real power to the total power in the equation above (or the cos of phi) is called power factor. As the angle gets larger (caused by increasing reactive power) the power factor gets smaller. In fact, the power factor can vary from 0 to 1, and can be either inductive (lagging) or capacitive (leading). Capacitive loads are drawn down, and inductive loads are drawn up on the power triangle. Most industrials normally operate on the upper triangle (inductive or lagging triangle). As an industrial adds capacitors, the length of reactive (inductive) power leg is shortened by the number of capacitive KEC that were added. If the number of capacitive KEC added exceeds the industrials inductive KEC load, operation occurs on the lower triangle. This is commonly referred to as over compensation.

Utilities charge for reactive power in a countless number of ways. Some utilities charge for KEC demand, while others charge a strait fee for a power factor less than their target. To fully understand the benefits of the KEC UNIT, you must acquire your electric billing rate structure. This rate structure will describe how cost for poor power factor are added to your monthly bills

You could put the KEC UNIT anywhere on the system as shown (between the transformer and load and not only at Points A, B, and C) and achieve unity power factor for the system. The utility company will perceive this power system as having a unity power factor no matter where it is located on the distribution line as long as it's sized correctly to deliver the proper amount of KEC.

However, optimum efficiency and economics will be achieved if the KEC UNIT bank is located as close to the load as possible.

The reason for this is because when you optimize power factor, you can reduce the total line current to the load and therefore you reduce the total losses in the line conductor and decrease the voltage drop in the line. This decrease in voltage drop will only occur if you locate the KEC UNIT close to the load, as explained below.

Assume the load is a motor. A motor uses KW to perform work. It uses KEC to magnetize its coil windings. (We will refer to the magnetic requirements of the motor's windings as the motor's "inductance". It is this inductance that utilizes the KEC.)

The motor load draws a line current that has two components. The first component is the amperage that supplies the KW to the load, so that the motor can perform work such as lifting an object. The second part supplies the amperage to provide the load with KEC which in the case of the motor is the power necessary to energize the magnetic fields in the motor's windings. Together the two amounts of current supply the total KVA to the load.

Normally the system generator or transformer supplies all this current. But when a KEC UNIT is used to optimize the power factor, the KEC UNIT supplies the KEC reactive current component to the load. The KEC UNIT is, in effect, a reactive power generator. (Remember, the KEC UNIT stores energy. The KEC UNIT stores reactive energy in its electric field when it charges up, and releases it when it discharges.)

The generator (or transformer) must still supply the load's KW requirements.

The reactive current component is now supplied by the KEC UNIT and not the generator. By moving the KEC UNIT closer to the load, the reactive current does not have to travel as far through the line conductors to get to the load.

If the KEC UNIT is placed at the load, the reactive current only needs to travel through a short distance (e.g. the lead length of connecting wire) to get to the load. Since this reactive current component no longer travels through the conductor line from the generator to the load, it does not travel through the impedances in the line conductor.

Since this reactive current no longer flows through the line impedances, there is less heating of the line, less losses (in the form of heat), and less voltage drop across these in - line impedances (which reduces the overall voltage drop from generator to load).

The KW current component is all that the generator has to supply to the motor. Therefore the generator now runs at unity power factor and allows the KEC UNIT to supply the KEC requirement of the motor's inductive windings.

The energy "contained" in the KEC current component is transferred back and forth between the KEC UNIT and the motor 2 times for every voltage sine wave cycle (i.e. at 120 times a second).

This reactive energy is never consumed by either the KEC UNIT or the motor. (NOTE: The KW energy, on the other hand, performs real work and is totally consumed.)

Rather, the reactive energy is only "BORROWED" half of the time by the KEC UNIT and half of the time by the motor. The energy is used to charge the AC electric field of the KEC UNIT and to energize and create the AC magnetic fields contained in the motor's windings.

A KEC UNIT absorbs this energy from the power system and stores this energy in its electric field when it charges up (120 times a second). The KEC UNIT releases this energy back into the power when it discharges (120 times a second).

The motor's inductance absorbs the reactive energy from the power system and stores this energy in its windings' magnetic fields when the fields are expanding (120 times a second). The inductance releases this energy back into the power system when the windings magnetic fields are collapsing (120 times a second).

The secret is that when the motor's inductance requires reactive energy to expand its magnetic field, the KEC UNIT discharges to supply the energy. And when the magnetic field in the motor's inductive windings is collapsing and returning energy to the system, the KEC UNIT uses this energy to charge up.

So the capacitance in the KEC UNIT and the inductance in the motor's windings "slinky" this reactive energy back and forth 120 times a second, each supplying the others needs. The reactive current of the KEC UNIT is 180 degrees out of phase with the reactive current of the inductance. When one is giving, the other is taking and vice versa.

Again, the reactive energy is never consumed (except for some small and usually insignificant losses); it is only borrowed. The generator needs to supply the original reactive KEC energy only once when the system is first energized. After that, this amount of energy is simply transferred back and forth between inductance and capacitance.

Power Factor is a measurement of how much of the KVA is actually in the form of KW. The advantage of a high power factor is that line currents can be reduced which will in turn reduce voltage drop and decrease line losses. This saves money. It also means that since equipment such as transformers will supply only KW, the KVA rating of the equipment can be reduced, or alternatively, more load can be added to the system without purchasing larger equipment.

The KVA rating of a transformer is based on the transformers ability to supply power either all in KW or all in KEC or in a combination of both. Drawing more than rated KVA from a transformer is easily done, but the transformer's life will be reduced due to increasing heat which destroys the transformer's winding insulation.

By increasing the power factor, all of a transformer's KVA can be utilized to supply KW in order to perform useful work rather than to supply KEC just to energize electric and magnetic fields.

Increasing the power factor seen by the transformer creates "room" on the transformer for adding more load. Room can also be created on circuit breakers. Since line current is reduced by increasing power factor, load can be added to the system without upgrading the breaker to a larger size.

Now you know the REAL facts, give us a call for any questions at (908) 256-3106 or go to www.saveenergyllc.com
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Old 02-23-2009, 05:02 PM   #35
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Depending upon the rate structure of your electric utility, you may be able to save a substantial amount of money on your electric bill. Pay-back period for an equipment purchase including installation cost may be six months up to three years. Utility rate structures that account for reactive power consumption, by either a KVA or var demand usage, or a power factor penalty are the ones that can provide this pay-back. Other ancillary benefits to be gained by optimizing power factor are, lower energy losses, better voltage regulation and released system capacity. This page explains the fundamentals of power factor and how KEC Units can benefit you.
Bold emphasis by me.

So, I would presume by the above statement, you do not sell to residential customers? I have never heard of a residence that wasn't billed by the kW/hr, with no regard to power factor.
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Old 02-23-2009, 10:01 PM   #36
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AHHHH John you stole my thunder, just to add if they do sell to residential they can join the long list of HOAXes

In addition if this is a unit with fixed capacitance. it is not doing much for commercial customers as pf changes with loads and it is either to little correction, just enough or driving the pf over the other way.

pf correction has been around for years and if this guy spent all that time developing this he may have wasted a few years.

Is there was there a link to a web site?

BUt with a name like kilowatt nanny I bet the market to residential as few commercial customers are going to but a product with this cheesy a name..JUST MY THOUGHTS
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Jackkeller posted above naming my company, V-Blox. V-Blox has no affiliation with KVAR nor has ever had any affiliation with them or any such companies. Any company that mount a power factor correction device in a home and tell the customer they will save energy should be categorized as such, we all know the savings to be negligible. KVAR chose to put me on their site as an imposter, what a joke, these guys rivet a box shut and put cheap capacitors inside with no means of disconnect. They should not be allowed to install these according to the NEC. They imply that I copied them but to be a copy I would have to manufacture junk, which we do not. Many of their distributors come to us and find out the truth, I guess this hurts their marketing efforts so instead of just telling the truth its easier to make false claims, which seems to be a pattern. They imply they invented power factor correction, again false. Von Kleist actually invented the capacitor in 1745 and further Myron Zucker actually pioneered the at load (commercial and industrial) approach to power factor correction to eliminate penalties and reduce line loss and did so over 50 years ago, long before KVAR re-invented what was already invented and perfected. Both Myron Zucker and V-Blox build industrial control panels and have to correct UL Listings to do so. The correct listing for this type of device is UL508A not UL 810. If you build capacitors, like GE, you would seek a UL 810 listing, if you put them in a enclosure with any other component (fuses, contactors, lights, breakers etc.) the correct listing is UL 508A. Why UL does not enforce this who knows. We build many various types of automated controllers including power factor correction. Our devices are designed to eliminate penalties, increase capacity and reduce line loss. We do not rivet our boxes shut and we do not recommend power factor correction for homes, unless capacity is an issue, but how many homes have enough inductive loads to justify such an expense? I wanted to set the record straight. V-Blox manufactures and distributes over 4000 various products, products to protect equipment such as panel mounted surge protection, data and communication line protection, industrial control panels, energy efficient lighting including LED. We address hot spots in the electrical environment, we address proper grounding and eliminate harmonics and too many others to name. A properly desinged power factor correction device will only be on when needed, never left on when the load(s) are not on. Service entrance PFC should be fully automated and all parts should be field serviceable by a licensed electrician. Power factor correction should never be sold by itself as an energy savings device. Selling multiple products and services bundled together to accomplish a desired result on behalf of the customer is one thing, promising 30% savings in a home (or a business) from a power factor correction device is a scam.
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Old 01-19-2010, 12:47 PM   #38
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MAKE IT STOP!!!!!

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Old 01-19-2010, 12:52 PM   #39
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Old 01-19-2010, 12:53 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by keymand View Post
Jackkeller posted above naming my company, V-Blox. V-Blox has no affiliation with KVAR nor has ever had any affiliation with them or any such companies. Any company that mount a power factor correction device in a home and tell the customer they will save energy should be categorized as such, we all know the savings to be negligible. KVAR chose to put me on their site as an imposter, what a joke, these guys rivet a box shut and put cheap capacitors inside with no means of disconnect. They should not be allowed to install these according to the NEC. They imply that I copied them but to be a copy I would have to manufacture junk, which we do not. Many of their distributors come to us and find out the truth, I guess this hurts their marketing efforts so instead of just telling the truth its easier to make false claims, which seems to be a pattern. They imply they invented power factor correction, again false. Von Kleist actually invented the capacitor in 1745 and further Myron Zucker actually pioneered the at load (commercial and industrial) approach to power factor correction to eliminate penalties and reduce line loss and did so over 50 years ago, long before KVAR re-invented what was already invented and perfected. Both Myron Zucker and V-Blox build industrial control panels and have to correct UL Listings to do so. The correct listing for this type of device is UL508A not UL 810. If you build capacitors, like GE, you would seek a UL 810 listing, if you put them in a enclosure with any other component (fuses, contactors, lights, breakers etc.) the correct listing is UL 508A. Why UL does not enforce this who knows. We build many various types of automated controllers including power factor correction. Our devices are designed to eliminate penalties, increase capacity and reduce line loss. We do not rivet our boxes shut and we do not recommend power factor correction for homes, unless capacity is an issue, but how many homes have enough inductive loads to justify such an expense? I wanted to set the record straight. V-Blox manufactures and distributes over 4000 various products, products to protect equipment such as panel mounted surge protection, data and communication line protection, industrial control panels, energy efficient lighting including LED. We address hot spots in the electrical environment, we address proper grounding and eliminate harmonics and too many others to name. A properly desinged power factor correction device will only be on when needed, never left on when the load(s) are not on. Service entrance PFC should be fully automated and all parts should be field serviceable by a licensed electrician. Power factor correction should never be sold by itself as an energy savings device. Selling multiple products and services bundled together to accomplish a desired result on behalf of the customer is one thing, promising 30% savings in a home (or a business) from a power factor correction device is a scam.

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