Ethanol fuel - Electrician Talk - Professional Electrical Contractors Forum

HighWirey · 06-22-2008, 02:09 PM

Gentlemen,

Lately in Florida, I notice "Less than 10% Ethanol" is posted on our gasoline pumps. I have heard that ethanol 'rots our motors'.

What say you all ?

Work'in For That Free Tee . . .

jrclen · 06-22-2008, 02:35 PM

Greetings from farm country.

I live in the heart of the ethanol hoax. We give corporations lots of tax money to produce the stuff in my state. Ethanol burns cooler than gasoline so I don't think it hurts the motors. But it also doesn't do the job of gasoline. The mileage on my truck drops from 21 to 17 when I burn 10% ethanol. That means I have to burn 20% more gasoline to go the same distance. That makes no sense to anyone but the politicians and the large corn producers.

And there is more. Each ethanol plant reeks. I mean serious stink. I guess they figure those of us used to manure wouldn't mind this new assault on our noses. And each ethanol plant has a very large sub station out front, using power from the dirty coal fired power plants to supposedly make cars pollute less. Add in all the extra diesel burned to produce the corn, transport it, and haul the ethanol, and what we have is a cruel hoax on the American people.

And then there is the driving up of our food prices from diverting the feed from animal production to automobile powering.

Someday the environmental funny people are going to discover there is water in my septic tank. And thus no need to waste electricity on my well pump.

It's a good life if you don't weaken.

nap · 06-22-2008, 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jrclen

And there is more. Each ethanol plant reeks. I mean serious stink. I guess they figure those of us used to manure wouldn't mind this new assault on our noses. .

they don't have to. We have one in South Bend Indiana and it used to create the odor. Enough bitchin' and the problem has been solved. (yes it is still in operation). Not sure what all was done but some type of scrubbers were installed in the stacks. I believe there was more than this but not sure what.

Ethanol is hygroscopic so that is a problem. It also is a problem with material compatibility but the <10% is supposed to be a low enough amount that it does not cause problems.

other than that, ethanol does contain approximately 2/3 the btu content of gasoline so it will result is a reduced fuel mileage although it should not be in the 20% range you have experienced. You are reducing the btu content of 1/10 of the fuel you are using by the 1/3 so it should not cause more than approximately a 3% or 4% reduction in mileage (this is all from a non-engineer though so take it for what it is worth).

the one benefit it does claim though is it is supposed to improve emmission levels due to the oxygen content of the methanol.

jrclen · 06-22-2008, 03:19 PM

So maybe if we chipped in more tax dollars to build the plants, the corporations could stop the stink? That's comforting.

Your figures are pretty interesting. But when I fill up with gas, I divide the miles I went by the gallons I stick in to fill up. Not scientific but it works. Gasoline = 21 MPG. Gasoline watered down with 10% ethanol = 17 MPG. I've checked it many times. So have most other people I know, with very similar results. Not so with my wife's new Saturn. Only a drop from 35 to 32. Only a 10% drop there. Of course the watered down gas costs exactly the same as real gas. So the 10 or 20 percent comes right out of our pockets.

Isn't methanol bad for rubber seals and such? I thought ethanol was a different thing than methanol. My Harley says 10% ethanol is ok but not to use methanol. I'm way out of my field here so I might well be wrong. I should stick to electricity and beer.

headrec · 06-22-2008, 03:56 PM

Lots of people I know run e85 in there car (85% ethanol and 15% gas). The only thing they had to do different was compensate for the fact you need more to run more fuel (bigger fuel pump, fuel injectors, and a way to tune the motor) They have had 0 problems running it. It actually cleans carbon deposits off in the combustion chamber. It makes an awesome race gas. It is rated at 104 octane but its oxygenated and it burns cooler then gas so its actually more like 114 octane or so. Basically if you have a high compression or a forced induction motor the stuff is cheap as hell and has awesome results as far as being able to push the car much harder then pump gas. I have seen people who have actually tuned there cars to get the same gas mileage if not better with e85 but most of the time adding ethanol to the gas usually causes worse gas mileage without doing something to tune it to run lean as possible.

nap · 06-22-2008, 04:09 PM

Quote:

;31047]So maybe if we chipped in more tax dollars to build the plants, the corporations could stop the stink? That's comforting.

Unless this a government owned facility, it should not take taxpayer dollars to correct the issue. It was argued in this area as a nuisance issue and was successfully won. I do not remember the last time I could smell this thing and I do some work at a company within 1/4 mile of the plant.

Quote:

Your figures are pretty interesting. But when I fill up with gas, I divide the miles I went by the gallons I stick in to fill up. Not scientific but it works. Gasoline = 21 MPG. Gasoline watered down with 10% ethanol = 17 MPG. I've checked it many times. So have most other people I know, with very similar results. Not so with my wife's new Saturn. Only a drop from 35 to 32. Only a 10% drop there. Of course the watered down gas costs exactly the same as real gas. So the 10 or 20 percent comes right out of our pockets.

I can't argue with your numbers, just throwing out a bit of details that should make them not probable. Just like on the mileage listed on the Monroney stickers; "your actual mileage may vary"

Quote:

Isn't methanol bad for rubber seals and such? I thought ethanol was a different thing than methanol. My Harley says 10% ethanol is ok but not to use methanol. I'm way out of my field here so I might well be wrong. I should stick to electricity and beer.

[

ethanol and methanol are different things. Ethanol is typically distilled from organics but can be derived from petroleum products and methanol is typically derived from natural gas although it was once distilled from wood, from which it derived the name of wood alcohol. Methanol and ethanol can be bad for seals and even due to it being hygroscopic, all metal parts it contacts. It also lacks the lubrication that gasoline supplies so wear is a factor in moving parts. E-85 is 85% ethanol. I bet your bike does not suggest that that much ethanol is ok. If a vehicle is not designed to run on (generically termed) alcohol, too much in a fuel will damage it.

btw, beer has ethanol in it. If it were methanol, you would probably be dead by now.

Now, since I am not a chemical engineer, you have nearly exhausted all the knowledge I possess concerning these two alcohols without referring to external sources.

HighWirey · 06-22-2008, 08:58 PM

Credit to you origional posters;

I live in the heart of the ethanol hoax.
I like your terminalogy 'hoax'

Each ethanol plant reeks.
I'd trade a reeking plant for MPG any day, if only it did not rot my engine.

each ethanol plant has a very large sub station out front.
Just wait until we have to break those H2 bonds from those O bonds. More work for us ECs . . .

and what we have is a cruel hoax on the American people. It's a good life if you don't weaken.
Yea, bro.

Ethanol is hygroscopic so that is a problem. It also is a problem with material compatibility but the <10% is supposed to be a low enough amount that it does not cause problems.
Supposed to, according to whom? Our government?

So maybe if we chipped in more tax dollars to build the plants, the corporations could stop the stink?
That's comforting. Puts me in mind of that old dirty joke.

Isn't methanol bad for rubber seals and such?
That is what I have heard, not to mention he corrosion on that umimum.

Lots of people I know run e85 in there car (85% ethanol and 15% gas) The only thing they had to do different was compensate for the fact you need more to run more fuel (bigger fuel pump, fuel injectors, and a way to tune the motor)
Do you really know anyone who did this? The jury has not been out long enough . . .

btw, beer has ethanol in it. If it were methanol, you would probably be dead by now.
I am half dead . . .

I bet your bike does not suggest that that much ethanol is ok.
My biker neighbor is paranoid about the bike/ethanol. Don't know what he will do when his big storage tank is empty

Mean while, CU men in the dealers shop, waiting for that motor rebuild.

And, as our esteemed president is fond of quoting, we can use switchgrass to make ethanol. We have plenty of switchgrass in Florida. Wonder how long will it be before switchgrass is $50USD a bushel? Someone has a plan here . . . humm.

Do not get me wrong men, I would not trade the USA for anything, glad to be born and raised here, however we are temporarily in a spiral, and it is not uphill.

Work'in For That Free Tee . . .

heel600 · 06-22-2008, 09:36 PM

Hey, I'm no chemist, but I believe it burns hotter than gas. Isn't that why dragsters (not the nitro, but the alcohol ones) burn it? While they do need more fuel using alchohol, since it burns hotter, they get more power.

I could be wrong, just my 2 cents

headrec · 06-22-2008, 09:49 PM

It burns colder period. Ethanol is fine to run in your car. Methanol however isn't. It doesn't produce as much energy as gas (hence why you have to run more of it) but it doesn't mean it doesn't have its own merits.

Ecopat · 06-23-2008, 04:20 AM

An engine that runs on beer, would probably be better for all of us no?

**frenchelectrican** · 06-23-2008, 04:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ecopat

An engine that runs on beer, would probably be better for all of us no?

Naw.,, it will drive the Cop's breathanziter gimzo like nut just like our nonconcat voltage detector

.,

But otherhand ya can't get too close to the bar or taven if your engine do run on beer very well and someone will find a way to " dry " up your fuel tank

Merci,Marc

Ecopat · 06-23-2008, 04:55 AM

Yeah, didnt think of that Marc.

leland · 06-23-2008, 06:08 AM

I run on beer just fine !

Never run out either.

I have heard grumblings from marine types that the ethanol is wreaking havoc with carburetors. Something to do with making condensation in the burn process.
I have had no trouble with my carbureted bikes (yet).

But why use a gallon and a half of fuel to make 1 gallon of this stuff? (that's what I have heard).

skinnyj41004 · 06-23-2008, 07:39 AM

I have an E-85 Ford Taurus. I have yet to run ethanol in it and actually am afraid to. When I did a tune up on it I replaced the fuel filter. The one I got for the E-85 was different than the one on the car. I took the origional to the parts store to get the correct one and the only one that would match was the filter for the regular gasoline engine. Im afraid the ethanol will eat the normal filter up and cause me problems. The difference was the fittings on the filter were different sizes.

jrclen · 06-23-2008, 11:21 AM

Down in the Milwaukee area they are forced to sell a special gasoline blend that absolutely will not work in my Harley. And guess where Harley's are made. Oxygenated gas or something. My bike runs like one plug fell out of a 2 plug motor. I have to buy gas before going in there, and travel outside the zone to get more gas. I have heard that outboard motors have the same problem, so the boaters are transporting gasoline from outside the zone in cans and drums. Now there is a nice safe practice.

Nap I don't have a problem running ethanol in my beer bottle. Heck, if drinking beer is good for the environment, the least I can do is help out by drinking my share. In fact, I drink the shares of the people who don't drink.

And HighWirey, I absolutely agree with you on the USA being by far the best place in the world to live. It just could use a little less tinkering by the perpetually worried people.

nap · 06-23-2008, 01:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by headrec

It burns colder period. Ethanol is fine to run in your car. Methanol however isn't. It doesn't produce as much energy as gas (hence why you have to run more of it) but it doesn't mean it doesn't have its own merits.

actually, methanol is a very common fuel in vehicles; race vehicles. Up until this year, Indy cars used methanol but this year (I believe) they switched to ethanol. Also World of Outlaw cars, USAC sprints and RC cars and planes use methanol.

Methanol contains about 1/2 the energy as gasoline while ethanol has about 2/3 the energy as gas. That is why it takes about 100% more methanol to run an engine and about 50% more if using ethanol (both compared to gasoline).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol cruise on down to "use" and you can see the energy levels of several fuels.

the one thing you will see there as well is ethanol increases octane rating.

headrec · 06-23-2008, 02:04 PM

I should have said its not ok to run methanol in production cars not race cars ha. My bad.

brian john · 06-23-2008, 04:46 PM

30 years ago we had the last gas "CRISIS" and while we drove big cars congress did SQUAT SH*T. All we got was Gasahol which cost us double. Subsidized and food prices.

While private industry should lead the country little was actually done towards weeding us off oil by either sector. BUT the government should have lead the way. As for the oil off the coast and in Alaska, SOONER OR LATER THAT STUFF IS GOING TO BE PUMPED. Start drilling now and pass bills to encourage development into alternatives.

For years some fought nukes, now nukes are being touted as the best large alternative to coal and oil.

leland · 06-24-2008, 06:41 AM

SPECULATION, not CRISIS. GREED, Not shortage.

Hell ,we are a Capatalist society, No?

I hate the prices too, but what the heck, If you can sell it and make the money... why not?

I'm renting myself out for $200 an hour (no takers).... but one day......

Follow the POLS $ and you will do fine !!

jrclen · 06-24-2008, 09:46 AM

Actually the new prices of gasoline are in line with the prices of most everything else we buy. Simple inflation. And high taxes on certain items like gas and cigarettes. I remember 25 cent per gallon gas and 25 cent per pack cigarettes. I quit smoking, but I am pretty sure they are right up there with our $4. something gallon of gas.

I will gladly pay the high prices to avoid shortages, rationing, and those dam long lines at the gas pumps we had the last time. That was a royal pain.

Yes we are a capitalist society, and it has given us the highest standard of living in the world. And more opportunities than you can shake a stick at.

All these so called "crises" are hyped up as a way to grease the way to drag us into socialism and third world status. The democrats have already decided that all we need to fix the "problem" is more taxes and government spending.

Leland, you signature line is awesome. And right on target.