crk1a

I have two customers looking to install generators for their homes. The first guy doesnt want to pony up the money for a 400amp ATS (has 225amp service) and standby generator, instead using a 10-14kw multifuel portable generator and manual transfer switch at the panel. My question is this: can one of the standard Generac (or equal) standby generators be set up with a manual start? I cant locate a large (14kw) multifuel portable. Second customer wants standby power for his 200amp service home but again doesnt want to open the checkbook far enough. He wants to be able power his whole panel, and select at his discretion what he needs running. He of course wants a smallish generator, but doesnt want to be limited to the 16 or so circuits that a generator subpanel would allow. Any thoughts (besides passing on the work)?

cmac1

#2 provided you calculate the loads correctly, you could put up to a 42 ckt panel of the gen ,unless your'e on 2008 ,then you're unlimited.

#1 i know of 100a manual transfers,maybe someone makes a 200a

Speedy Petey

Give them both your best price to do it RIGHT and see what happens.
Don't cob together something that shouldn't be, like manually controlling a system that is designed to be automatic.

The first guy has a true 225A service? Why?
You an give him a 200A service rated transfer switch but that will lower his overall capacity to 200A. Will that really be a big deal?

The second guy you can sell a main breaker interlock for a manual generator. A real standby automatic genny MUST have an automatic transfer switch or panel. If he doesn't want the inconvenience of a transfer panel with a limited number of circuits let him pay for a 200A automatic switch.
Just tell him: "Sorry Mr. Customer, they are expensive, I can't help that".

ACB

DITTO,,, I would not mickey mouse a system as it will only lead to call backs for complaining, explain to both what is "code" and how what they are asking for has to be done to acheive the results they are expecting, go in with a slightly inflated price and knock it down to normal so they think they are getting a bargain.
it allways amazes me what people will pay for an SUV or sports car, or bigscreen tv yet they won't pony up for electrical work done properly which is a lifetime investment in their home and home's value, that has no where near the same depretiation rate.

jwelectric

The state of Ohio is under the 2008 code if I am not mistaken.

Some major changes in Article 702 for the 2008 code cycle will mandate that if an automatic transfer switch is installed the generator will need to be sized for the calculated load that is being transferred.

For the 225 amp service I assume that the calculated load is more than 200 or a 200 would have been installed. If an automatic transfer is being used then the generator must be no less than 48kva if the calculated load being transferred is 200 amps.

With a manual transfer again the generator must be sized for the load being transferred.
One of the most misinterpreted sections of this article is 702.5(B)(1) the last sentence.
This is not saying that a 7kw generator can be used on a 100 amp manual transfer and the homeowner can turn off one breaker so they can turn on another.

One other point to consider is the way the portable generator is bonded.

crk1a

just trying to clarify this ATS requirement: Generator must be sized to calculated load of the home if backfeeding the whole panel. I know i can get around some of these issues with load shedding devices, but there is a large price difference between a 14kw gen and a 30+kw gen. Is this requirement essentially telling me i can not backfeed the whiole panel?

Speedy Petey

702.5(B)(2), another STUPID 2008 change.

Why couldn't they put in an exception for residential applications?

chenley

I'm with Speedy on this one, give them a price to do it right or don't do it at all.

I've had a few clients tell me exactly what yours told you. After this ice storm that hit, people are wanting female plugs installed at there panel so they can plug the generator in, promising me that they will turn off the main breaker. Which I pulled the meter, when I hooked up the generators.

That's not liability I want to take on, let the trunk slammers do that work. If they don't want to pay what it takes to do it the right way, I don't really want them as clients anyways.

brian john

I have installed 2000 amp MTS's. You have the money they got the switch.
As for starting use a toggle switch, who wants to pull a rope?

wirenut1110

All Generac stand-by generators have a manual start. Only thing will be if you don't hook up the N1 and N2 control wires, the battery charger won't work, and the unit won't exercise.
I don't see any issue with just using an interlock kit on the main panel. Still run the N1 & N2 control wires to the generator. Set the unit in auto. This will 1) power the battery charger 2) Let the unit exercise weekly 3) When the power does go out, the unit will start and then they can do a manual transfer. When power is restored the generator shuts down and they can go switch the panel back over.

Unless it's a newer model where the battery charger is installed separately.

__________________
Jim

leland

I have no problem with 702..

I got a problem with people (some "PROS") making it 'work'.

Said it before: I'll say it again.

It is what it is.
So be it,or walk away.
The more we bend the further down we go. Sooner or later WE become the DIY !!!!! To GET THE JOB? Thats SAD.

Sorry this added nothing to the OP.
But,I'm sick and tired of Charlie trying to shaft John. We are all in this together.

Lets just get together.

__________________
"When one American is not worth the effort to be found, we as Americans have lost" (Rolling Thunder MA 1)

wirenut1110

I don't think I'm understanding exactly what you're saying by your comments.

The options that he has to meet the customers needs(and budget) are many so I don't see how it's "making it work".

The pre-packaged systems are for the DIY'r. They come pre-wired with step by step instructions so it'll be plug and play.

Non-prepackaged generators, 100, 200, 400 amp transfer switches, SE and non-SE rated, load shedding, power managers and other accessories wouldn't be available if everything is what it is.

That's what is supposed to make you a pro, is to be able to adapt to different situations, applications, needs, budgets, or whatever.

Seems to me paying $3500 for a generator then tell the customer it's another $3000 for a 400 amp SE switch and they cringe so you give them other options.

I'd rather back feed my panel and get a generator that automatically starts and all I have to do is manually transfer my load vs. backfeed my panel and get a portable that i have to go out knee deep in snow, break out a cord, hope the battery isn't dead or it's full of fuel, hook it all up and transfer my loads.

__________________
Jim

cmac1

Thank you wirenut110

cmac1

i was offended by the trunk slamming comments.My point was if the OCPD is sized correctly ,you can pick and choose which circuits you want on your em panel.provided the loads are calculated correctly there should no problem.For an example a 40 ckt 200 mb panel,total amperage 800 amp,go figure ?

jwelectric

Quote:

Originally Posted by crk1a just trying to clarify this ATS requirement: Generator must be sized to calculated load of the home if backfeeding the whole panel. I know i can get around some of these issues with load shedding devices, but there is a large price difference between a 14kw gen and a 30+kw gen. Is this requirement essentially telling me i can not backfeed the whiole panel?

Yes. The requirement is telling you that you can't transfer the entire panel either by auto or manual unless the generator is big enough to carry the entire panel of some type of load management device is installed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmac1 i was offended by the trunk slamming comments.My point was if the OCPD is sized correctly ,you can pick and choose which circuits you want on your em panel.provided the loads are calculated correctly there should no problem.For an example a 40 ckt 200 mb panel,total amperage 800 amp,go figure ?

I disagree with this statement if you are saying that the homeowner is allowed to turn off one circuit and then turn on another circuit when the whole panel is being transferred.

leland

My Home:

Installed a 100A sub, located all ckts That I needed in this panel.
Installed a 100A Transfer,( manual) off of a 11KW generator.

This is a good set up. However it cost time and money. Some customers don't realize this. But thats how it is.

I was too cheap to by the Auto, But it's in the new budget.

__________________
"When one American is not worth the effort to be found, we as Americans have lost" (Rolling Thunder MA 1)

wirenut1110

I read it as, for a manual switch, loads that are intended to be operated at the same time. The user shall be permitted to select the load connected to the system.

A little different than for an auto switch.

__________________
Jim

jwelectric

This is correct. The verbiage is just this:
702.5 Capacity and Rating.
(B) System Capacity. The calculations of load on the standby source shall be made in accordance with Article 220 or by another approved method.
(1) Manual Transfer Equipment. Where manual transfer equipment is used, an optional standby system shall have adequate capacity and rating for the supply of all equipment intended to be operated at one time. The user of the optional standby system shall be permitted to select the load connected to the system.

In my kitchen I have a switch for my dishwasher, disposal, sink light and the overhead light that I can use to turn on and off each of these items.
Are these items when off, connected to my premises wiring system? If the answer to this question is yes then any circuit that is installed in a panel supplied by a generator is connected to the generator’s system even if it is turned off.

The verbiage clearly states that the user of the optional standby system can choose what they want to have connected to the system. It does not say that the user can go down and remove a circuit nor does it say that the user can turn off one circuit so they can turn on another.

What it does say is the user can choose what is to be connected to the transfer switch or the panel that the transfer controls and this can not exceed the size of the generator.

Speedy Petey

I only see this for automatic transferred systems Mike. I don't read that it applies to manually transferred systems.

702.5(B)(1) specifically says: "The user of the optional standby system shall be permitted to select the load connected to the system."

(B)(2) says: "(a) Full Load. The standby source shall be capable of supplying the full load that is transferred by the automatic transfer equipment.
(b) Load Management. Where a system is employed that will automatically manage the connected load, the standby source shall have a capacity sufficient to supply the maximum load that will be connected by the load management system. "

InPhase277

I think he is considering that a load, even when the breaker is off is still connected. I would disagree, as the very act of throwing the breaker is considered disconnecting by almost everyone that works on electrical systems. The example of a light switch, on the other hand, is not analogous, because no one considers a light switch on a branch circuit a disconnect.

In my interpretation of the verbiage, turning off a circuit breaker would be equivalent to "selecting the load".