Signalservice

Hooked up a flood control pump today in an underground vault. Used a simplex outlet mounted high in the vault, with an in-use cover for dripping moisture. service gfi is located aboveground, ten feet away. Flood pump tagged for gfci operation, which I installed indoors in a highly visable location, used a leviton with the green "ready to go " light. My question here is, now the expensive flood control for the expensive home is at the mercy of the gfci device, I am worried about this: can I just follow code and ignore the pump's manufacturer's tag on his connection cord?

480sparky

Being in ChiTown, don't you have your own code and not the NEC?

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Dennis Alwon

Does code allow no GFCI? If so, then I probably would ignore the tag. One could argue that a vault is not outside and if the vault is not part of the home then it may be compliant but as Ken said what is Chicago code?

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Jlarson

Removing the GFCI isn't the answer and it's also stupid and unnecessary.

If this pump is truly critical a back up pump and/or alarms are in order.

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Dennis Alwon

Some areas have amendments that allow no GFCI for sump pumps.

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Jlarson

Those are stupid and unnecessary too. It's not the proper way to go.

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chicken steve

i can't see why a dedicated GFPE couldn't be employed....~CS~

Jlarson

Cause the manufacturer (like many others) calls for a GFCI, not a GFP.

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CanadianSparky

I would never put s gfci on a sump pump. Even if you have an alarm what if the HO goes away on vacation and the GFCI decides it doesn't want to work anymore? That would be a nice gift when you got back.

kbsparky

I disagree.

GFCI's are way overrated, since they are vulnerable to nuisance tripping.

Had a job with 2 sump pumps in a fire pump pit. Each sump pump was fed by its own GFCI protected outlet.

Lightning storms routinely trip out GFCI's and this was no exception.

So the storm hit, both GFCIs tripped out, and then the fire pump pit flooded out.

Now you have a useless 100 hp fire pump, since it's under 3 feet of water!!

I doubt that an alarm could have stopped it in time. But a couple of working sump pumps may have done their job, if they had a reliable power supply.

So now you have an entire shopping center with no fire pump system in place. Who is at risk now?

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-KB

Life is uncertain -- eat dessert first!

Jlarson

Yeah, get zapped by faulty pumps when you drop a tool into a sump while you're working in a vault an you'll change that view.

As for your fire pump problem, someone forgot the most critical rule of critical alarms, monitoring. Big part of the puzzle.

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mrmike

It is more Stupid to take the chance of this pump not coming on, because of a trip from a GFI..........if Code allows it- in this case, exclude the manufacturers suggestion.......

Jlarson

Which would be a code violation, it's probly going to void the warranty and also it will open you up to liability if some gets zapped...

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kbsparky

I never put my hand into a sump pit with the motor still plugged in. GFCI or not, that's plain stupid.

Hard to monitor such alarms with raging lightning storm out. Many alarms will trigger whether they have tripped or not, from the static in the air. Then there is the response time factor. Alarm trips, it's middle of the night ... takes awhile to investigate problem(s) .... by the time someone gets there, it's too late, damage is done.

I prefer prevention, using things like double-insulated pumps, or even isolation transformers instead of relying on something as fickle as a GFCI receptacle.

This was NOT a dwelling, either.

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-KB

Life is uncertain -- eat dessert first!

chicken steve

yes i realize that JL

one would think they'd have fielded numerous complaints to that end

that said, if it's not manufacturers dictating protection, it'll be the nec

gfci protection and afci protection has grown to where almost everything within a dwelling is protected by them

i find this inefficent, a recipee for constant callbacks

what i do find interesting is the euro solution of differentials

of course, finding a meter for it all would take a generation of use/abuse for subsequent statistical anaylsis

at which point we'll be sold version 4,5, 6, etc

~CS~

Jlarson

and for good measure

What in the name of all this is good and holy are people using for alarms out there?

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kbsparky

You've never talked with anyone who works at an alarm monitoring station, have you?

I have had friends who work in such environments, and they can track a storm better than the weatherman!

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-KB

Life is uncertain -- eat dessert first!

chicken steve

well i can imagine yelling GFCI in a crowded fire is a definite no no kb

~CS~

Jlarson

I can't make heads or tails of your post (although I appreciate that you are using a more normal font size now ).

What I realize it that many of you need to come work with my guys for a day and see that pumps can work just fine on GFCI's.

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chicken steve

i believe i read reference to having an alarm exempt from whole house gfi's JL

nfpa 72, iirc

~CS~