I don't like but its legal - Electrician Talk - Professional Electrical Contractors Forum

brother · 11-18-2009, 08:34 PM

Here's another of my I don't like it, but its legal, and its probably the fastest to get the job done.

A circuit(recptacle) was disconnected and the panel it came from is full. That 20 amp breaker that fed it lost its spot to a 3 pole 100 amp, (along with 2 other breakers).

There is a panel 'right beside it' with a spare. Basically the plan is to run a short conduit/flex about 6" to the panel where the wires were originally in the panel, and just feed that circuit that way. Basically, using that original panel as a 'junction' box for a splice just for that one circuit.

I recommended that they 'tag',label the circuit so the next person will quickly know that its feed from another panel and killing power to that panel will not kill all the power in that panel.

What do you think??

cdnelectrician · 11-18-2009, 08:36 PM

Not allowed here!

Wait a second, panel is full and there is a 3 pole 100A CB being installed? That doesn't sound right either...How large is this panel and what is it being fed with?

waco · 11-18-2009, 09:31 PM

I think any competent electrician will see the splice and realize the special situation, but, a label wouldn't hurt.

BCSparkyGirl · 11-18-2009, 10:08 PM

yep, big no no here.

Bob Badger · 11-19-2009, 03:52 AM

Many US electricians think its a code violation here.

Just curious if our Canadian friends can show the code section that prevents it up there.

knowshorts · 11-19-2009, 10:29 AM

It's done all the time to feed a new subpanel.

Quote:

I recommended that they 'tag',label the circuit so the next person will quickly know that its feed from another panel and killing power to that panel will not kill all the power in that panel.

That's why we have testers.

BCSparkyGirl · 11-19-2009, 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob Badger

Many US electricians think its a code violation here.

Just curious if our Canadian friends can show the code section that prevents it up there.

6-212 Wiring space in enclosures

(1)Enclosures for circuit breakers and externally operated switches shall not be used as junction boxes, troughs, or raceways for conductors feeding through, or tapping off to other apparatus.

John Valdes · 11-19-2009, 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BCSparkyGirl

6-212 Wiring space in enclosures

(1)Enclosures for circuit breakers and externally operated switches shall not be used as junction boxes, troughs, or raceways for conductors feeding through, or tapping off to other apparatus.

I am glad we do not have that rule. We use panels as j-boxes all the time. Can you use an old panel with the guts pulled out as a j-box?

OP....What happened to the other two breakers? Were they connected or where they spares? Personally I like this non-rule.

BCSparkyGirl · 11-19-2009, 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Valdes

I am glad we do not have that rule. We use panels as j-boxes all the time. Can you use an old panel with the guts pulled out as a j-box?

I would imagine so, as long as no breakers are to be installed into it. Ya, it's a pain, but I don't like seeing junctions in panels myself.

Bob Badger · 11-19-2009, 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BCSparkyGirl

6-212 Wiring space in enclosures

(1)Enclosures for circuit breakers and externally operated switches shall not be used as junction boxes, troughs, or raceways for conductors feeding through, or tapping off to other apparatus.

Thank you.

That is very similar to how our NEC section 312.8 starts but after that it goes on to say 'unless there is space' yada yada yada.

BCSparkyGirl · 11-19-2009, 02:42 PM

no prob, Bob.

nolabama · 11-19-2009, 04:17 PM

I believe that is legal here. I don't see any problem with it. I like to tag crazy things like that on the back of the plate and inside the box.

Mike_586 · 11-19-2009, 06:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BCSparkyGirl

I would imagine so, as long as no breakers are to be installed into it. Ya, it's a pain, but I don't like seeing junctions in panels myself.

In old gutted out panels with the feeders removed you can, I've seen it a few times, and the ones I've seen are UGLY....

Every time its a bit of a shock looking for a circuit and walking up to a "panel" only to find it completely filled with wire and wire nuts

BCSparkyGirl · 11-19-2009, 07:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike_586

In old gutted out panels with the feeders removed you can, I've seen it a few times, and the ones I've seen are UGLY....

Every time its a bit of a shock looking for a circuit and walking up to a "panel" only to find it completely filled with wire and wire nuts

that's what I figured. Not much to be said about their craftsmanship.

rdr · 11-19-2009, 08:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BCSparkyGirl

I would imagine so, as long as no breakers are to be installed into it. Ya, it's a pain, but I don't like seeing junctions in panels myself.

Ok, you replace a panel with home runs in MC or romex, and the new can is bigger than the smaller one. Some of the home runs are too short to get to any of the breakers. What do you do now? Separate j-box beside the panel? Leave the old can, gut it, use it for a j-box and put the new panel can somewhere else? Is this rule leniently enforced? I'm just curious.

BTW it eats me up to see junctions in panels too, but sometimes it's almost necessary.

BCSparkyGirl · 11-19-2009, 08:21 PM

Separate j box, I would guess most people would do. A far as I know, there is no leniency on this rule. If you go and do something like that, I am sure an inspector would question all your work. This is why I always make sure I leave a little extra when terminating to any of the breakers. Always gotta keep the future in mind.

MF Dagger · 11-19-2009, 08:23 PM

So no wirenuts in the panel at all? That must be ugly as sin to have junction boxes just riddled around the panel

brother · 11-19-2009, 08:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Valdes

I am glad we do not have that rule. We use panels as j-boxes all the time. Can you use an old panel with the guts pulled out as a j-box?

OP....What happened to the other two breakers? Were they connected or where they spares? Personally I like this non-rule.

Im not sure what those other 2 spaces were for. I just hoped the engineers checked it out. It just seems like they missed some things.

rdr · 11-19-2009, 08:25 PM

Good to know if and when I go back.

Some things could be not so widely enforced though. For example, we have a rule that says you're not allowed to use phase tape on anything 6 or smaller, it has to be the right colour. I've seen coloured 8's exactly ONCE, and that was at least a 20 yr old existing installation at the time. Never seen or heard of anybody getting tagged for violating that rule either.

BCSparkyGirl · 11-19-2009, 08:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MF Dagger

So no wirenuts in the panel at all? That must be ugly as sin to have junction boxes just riddled around the panel

nope, not one nut. But, as I said, if the original installer had any brains in his/her head, they would have left a little extra length on the conductors. But otherwise, ya it could get ugly, or I might just make a lot of money if the HO just wants everything pulled new..........