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Old 01-05-2012, 06:55 PM   #1
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Ran a 60 amp underground feeder to detached garage (with new slab). I got the "New" inspector. He red tagged me for this

No main

No ufer ground (see below)

Needs 2 ground rods

Thats it.

They just built this structure about 1 month before I got there. No permits and the GC left town with their money. We don't even know if their is rebar in there. Inpector says I must jackhammer out to rebar (if there is any) and clamp with approved fitting . I said I have nothing to do with this problem. This place was existing when I got there. He said it's under 3 months so it's still considered new construction and it's the electricians responsibility to bond the rebar??

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Old 01-05-2012, 07:04 PM   #2
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I could see grounding one way or the other but not both.

Isn't it a sub-panel anyway and grounded at the main panel?

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Old 01-05-2012, 07:21 PM   #3
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its one or the other. if you put a ufer in you don't need the ground rods. what's this guy smoking ? customer needs to pay you to jackhammer - that's not a big deal. he is being kind of an ahole, tho. customer should call county and complain - that puts you out of it.
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Old 01-05-2012, 07:23 PM   #4
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You only have to hook to a UFER if it is available. It isnt, so run 2 rods in and tell him to pass it. You also need a main [or 6 throws or less] at the structure, no way around that.
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Old 01-05-2012, 07:23 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sencoman View Post
I could see grounding one way or the other but not both.

Isn't it a sub-panel anyway and grounded at the main panel?
You still need a main or 6 handles, 2 rods and ???Ufer if the sub panel is in another structure
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Old 01-05-2012, 07:35 PM   #6
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You only have to hook to a UFER if it is available. It isnt, so run 2 rods in and tell him to pass it. You also need a main [or 6 throws or less] at the structure, no way around that.
I beleive it's not "available" it's been changed to "present". If it's there you need to use it. I'm not sure about this specific situation but I don't feel like looking in the book right now and I know somebody else will.
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Old 01-05-2012, 07:43 PM   #7
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Canadian code would allow the garage to be a sub panel from the main house and not grounded at the garage at all. Our only compulsory ground for an out building would be if the outbuilding houses livestock or if it were on the secondary of an isolation transformer.
Further the 2012 Canadian code only requires a #6 for all low voltage grounding regardless of service capacity. We only require 1 electrode which could be a Ufer, a ground plate, or 2 X 10 foot rods. We have other electrode types but these are the main types.
From my reading of the NEC I don't see where you have to use 2 methods except where 1 electrode is the water pipe.
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Old 01-05-2012, 07:45 PM   #8
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I beleive it's not "available" it's been changed to "present". If it's there you need to use it. I'm not sure about this specific situation but I don't feel like looking in the book right now and I know somebody else will.
The "if available" was the wording in the 2002 NEC.
It was changed in the 2005 to "That are present" and is still written that way in the 2008 and the 2011

What we allow when the CEE was missed or not inspected is, we have the contractor dig a ditch footer depth next to the structure and install a CEE in that ditch. Making sure it is inspected prior to pouring concrete on it.Basically install a footer next to the building just for a CEE
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Old 01-05-2012, 08:05 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cletis View Post
Ran a 60 amp underground feeder to detached garage (with new slab). I got the "New" inspector. He red tagged me for this

No main

No ufer ground (see below)

Needs 2 ground rods

Thats it.

They just built this structure about 1 month before I got there. No permits and the GC left town with their money. We don't even know if their is rebar in there. Inpector says I must jackhammer out to rebar (if there is any) and clamp with approved fitting . I said I have nothing to do with this problem. This place was existing when I got there. He said it's under 3 months so it's still considered new construction and it's the electricians responsibility to bond the rebar??


Buy a Milwaukee sub scanner. It will find metal in concrete up to 6". Here is an "afterthought" bond when I encountered the exact same situation as you.




ok 060.jpg
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Old 01-05-2012, 08:07 PM   #10
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you need a main per 225.32. You at least need rods, inspectors here don't consider floating structures, ones that do not have frost footings, and acceptable ufer ground.
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Old 01-05-2012, 08:21 PM   #11
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Buy a Milwaukee sub scanner. It will find metal in concrete up to 6". Here is an "afterthought" bond when I encountered the exact same situation as you.




Attachment 11176
But how can you guarantee that the rebar you found is 20' continuous or multiple pieces tied together ?
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Old 01-05-2012, 08:27 PM   #12
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But how can you guarantee that the rebar you found is 20' continuous or multiple pieces tied together ?

I could verify length with that Milwaukee. I didn't with the one pictured, because it was a pool bond. I had to bond it no matter what.
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Old 01-05-2012, 09:40 PM   #13
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this guy is new and i'm going to have to deal with him for a real long time. I don't mind putting in a lockable main breaker in the little 30 amp 6 space panel, but, chiseling up the concrete to put in an ufer ground (unless someone pays me) i'm walking off this job. 2 grounds rods..no biggie just to make him happy

Thanks for the tip on scanner. If they pay me, I'll go buy another toy and chisel it out and put in his stinkin concrete pad bond
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Old 01-05-2012, 10:07 PM   #14
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What about 250.50 Exception:

Quote:
Exception: Concrete-encased electrodes of existing buildings
or structures shall not be required to be part of the grounding
electrode system where the steel reinforcing bars or rods are
not accessible for use without disturbing the concrete.
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Old 01-05-2012, 10:17 PM   #15
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What about 250.50 Exception:
He said there is a 3 month rule. If it was built within 3 months then it is considered new. I think he is making that up
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Old 01-05-2012, 10:30 PM   #16
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What about 250.50 Exception:

This is not existing. It's a new build and they got caught. I attended out last code update class, and they blatantly said if you forget it in a pad, or footer, you'll be chipping it back out because they're not gonna let it slide.
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Old 01-05-2012, 11:32 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Cletis View Post
this guy is new and i'm going to have to deal with him for a real long time. I don't mind putting in a lockable main breaker in the little 30 amp 6 space panel, but, chiseling up the concrete to put in an ufer ground (unless someone pays me) i'm walking off this job. 2 grounds rods..no biggie just to make him happy

Thanks for the tip on scanner. If they pay me, I'll go buy another toy and chisel it out and put in his stinkin concrete pad bond
I would call him out if it is only a 6 circuit panel about the main, providing the feed is not a tap.
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Old 01-06-2012, 12:55 AM   #18
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drop a 20' bare wire in the ground or a ring and call it a day.

Ground rods are last resort. If you dont have rebar, water pipe, you would need a ring around the building or 20' bare. And earth test.

Back in the good old days out in FL guys would drop rods with there hands out here. The inspector would want to see the connetion above the ground finish level. So that would mean that the rod is not installed to code 8' in the dirt lol.

Plus when the home owner would cut the grass he would be busting his lawn mower hahah.
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Old 01-06-2012, 12:59 AM   #19
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He said there is a 3 month rule. If it was built within 3 months then it is considered new. I think he is making that up
Thats crazy but I heard worst
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Old 01-06-2012, 01:58 AM   #20
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Convince the inspector that they lined the footing with plastic wrap, which would then render the "if present" to void, because if it is insulated from the earth, it's not present. Same goes for coated rebar. P.S. I hate it when inspectors try to get me to install all sorts of workarounds for visqueen plastic under the rebar in slab on grade jobs. Had one ask me to stick a twenty footer under the plastic on the bottom of the footer so it contacted dirt. I tried to point out that an uffer is a "concrete encased electrode" but it was like talking to that congressman that thought placing a marine base at the end of Guam Island would cause it to tip over.


Also the words 20 foot minimum of 1/2" or larger size rebar hangs up several of them. They do not bother to read so they don't understand the tie wire exception in order to achieve 20 foot.

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