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11-05-2007, 09:52 AM   #1
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Power generation in Mathematical city

Mayor of a mathematical city promised that electrical energy will be free for their future citizen, because they will consume no energy for electrical power generation!!
He said;” in our power plant, the generators start working with a little prime mover and produce a lot of electrical energy.”
He added our electrical generators will make a big permanent magnet that produces uniform magnetic field as generator stator and electrical windings that is located in its rotor, supplies load currents. The rotor of generator rotates within the gap without any energy consumption and produce required electromotive forces at end of windings although active/reactive consumers are connected to its terminals. Of course the electrical consumers shall be located in region of stator uniform magnetic flux.
He said, our mathematicians explain this technique as follow:
For integration of distributed forces on induced current elements we can write:
F = ∫ IB x dL where " I " is loads current, B is uniform magnetic flux density and " L " is electrical path that closed with electrical loads in region of uniform magnetic field.
Because of magnetic flux uniformity, we can write: F = -IB ∫ dL
Also the loop of electrical path is closed by loads; so we can write:
∫ dL = 0 and F = 0
Therefore in our power plant we will not need energy consumption for the electrical power producing.

What is your opinion? Is it possible?

BEST REGARDS
MSJ

Creative thinking is enjoyable,Then think about your surrounding things and other thought products. http://electrical-riddles.com
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 11-05-2007, 01:18 PM #2 Senior Member   Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Eighty Four,Pa.15330 Posts: 5,515 As I recall,Nuclear power generation was going to generate electricity "Too Cheap To Meter!"
 11-06-2007, 02:14 PM #3 Senior Member     Join Date: May 2007 Location: South Carolina Posts: 8,057 I am of the opinion that this country needs more Nuclear power plants. Lots of them. Clean and renewable. Less pollution and less need for fossil fuels. I told my wife as we watched the news one eve, as demonstators rallied outside a site that is on schedule for construction. "they should get all these unknowledgable person's pictures, find out who they are and turn off their power" They did not realize they were already consuming Nuclear power in this area. A few days without electricity, they might just realize the need for Nuclear power generation.
 The Following User Says Thank You to John Valdes For This Useful Post: Frasbee (07-01-2010)
 11-06-2007, 06:04 PM #4 Senior Member   Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: West Chester Pa. Posts: 247 Some environmentalist are saying they are changing there minds about it. The way fossil fuels are contributing to global warming is becoming more of a threat than the risks from nuke's. France is like 90% nuke
 11-06-2007, 07:07 PM #5 Senior Member   Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Eighty Four,Pa.15330 Posts: 5,515 I'm from Western Pa. where a lot of good paying jobs depend on coal fired generation plants.Realistly Nuclear has less polution problems down the road.
11-06-2007, 09:20 PM   #6
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Quote:
 Originally Posted by bigredc222 The way fossil fuels are contributing to global warming is becoming more of a threat than the risks from nuke's.
Let's not get started on the global warming.

Last edited by gilbequick; 11-06-2007 at 09:23 PM.

 11-07-2007, 12:06 AM #7 A real loose neutral!     Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Ely Minnesota Posts: 56 At this point IMO the waste is our only Stickleback (undesirable nuclear fish). What the hell we gonna do with the spent fuel? Beyond launch into space (bad idea) and worry about it later, I've yet to see a beter idea. Awesome source of power and we'll figure out someday how to make it safe Now and Then.
 11-07-2007, 07:15 AM #8 Senior Member     Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Leesburg, VA Posts: 20,367 Nuculear: If properly handled could be viable. 1. Quit building the monstrousities that are so labor intensive with cost over runs. 2. Standardize the design with the BEST design, if there is an issue a plant A you would know you need to fix all plants B-z and this also would minimize cost of customizing. 3. The designs should be much like the nukes on aircraft's carriers compact small less of a mess should they ever GO UP. But all of the above leaves MSJ out in the cold with no one posting any viable responses to his OP.
11-07-2007, 07:22 AM   #9
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Quote:
 Originally Posted by brian john But all of the above leaves MSJ out in the cold with no one posting any viable responses to his OP.
Because no one understands what the hell he is saying. I sure as hell don't!
This is "Electrician" talk, not quantum physics talk.

I know the EE field is slightly related to our world, but come ON!

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11-07-2007, 04:11 PM   #10
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Quote:
 Originally Posted by Speedy Petey Because no one understands what the hell he is saying. I sure as hell don't! This is "Electrician" talk, not quantum physics talk. I know the EE field is slightly related to our world, but come ON!
I'm laughing my ass off. I think it supposed to be a joke. I hope.

11-07-2007, 04:14 PM   #11
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Quote:
 Originally Posted by gilbequick Let's not get started on the global warming.
I'm just repeating some things I heard. I have no opinion. I know nothing.

 11-07-2007, 05:34 PM #12 Don't like know it alls   Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: UK Posts: 377 Crikey ! the conversation is getting a bit advanced here for electricians I did some work at a neuclear power station where i used to live at burnham on sea,the plant was called hinkley point B. First went into production in 1976 but both reactors have now been shut down due to cracks in the tubes and cores. We do need to look into this energy production more as we can't keep burning off resources. In the U.K. there is quite a lot of wind farms springing up in various places,ugly looking critters but clean energy. Chris
 11-07-2007, 05:48 PM #13 Senior Member     Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Maine Posts: 971 Between the language barrier ( I don't speak Iranian) and the fact MSJ's posts are way over my head, I'd rather talk about nuclear waste. Here's what we're doing with some of our defense related nuclear waste. http://www.wipp.energy.gov/ I used to live 50 miles from there. I still glow in the dark. LOL
11-07-2007, 05:56 PM   #14
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Quote:
 Originally Posted by m.s.j Mayor of a mathematical city promised that electrical energy will be free for their future citizen, because they will consume no energy for electrical power generation!!
It takes energy to create energy as in the old saying "It Takes Money To Make Money"
Quote:
 Originally Posted by m.s.j He said;” in our power plant, the generators start working with a little prime mover and produce a lot of electrical energy.”
Define "a little" and "A lot".

Quote:
 Originally Posted by m.s.j He added our electrical generators will make a big permanent magnet that produces uniform magnetic field as generator stator and electrical windings that is located in its rotor, supplies load currents. The rotor of generator rotates within the gap without any energy consumption and produce required electromotive forces at end of windings although active/reactive consumers are connected to its terminals. Of course the electrical consumers shall be located in region of stator uniform magnetic flux. He said, our mathematicians explain this technique as follow: For integration of distributed forces on induced current elements we can write: F = ∫ IB x dL where " I " is loads current, B is uniform magnetic flux density and " L " is electrical path that closed with electrical loads in region of uniform magnetic field. Because of magnetic flux uniformity, we can write: F = -IB ∫ dL Also the loop of electrical path is closed by loads; so we can write: ∫ dL = 0 and F = 0
Where in the calculation is friction and heat created by this generator accounted for?

Quote:
 Originally Posted by m.s.j Therefore in our power plant we will not need energy consumption for the electrical power producing. What is your opinion? Is it possible?
Impossible.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by m.s.j BEST REGARDS MSJ Creative thinking is enjoyable,Then think about your surrounding things and other thought products. http://electrical-riddles.com

Carry On!

Burn a tree and save a barrel.
__________________
Doubt All Before Believing Anything.......

11-07-2007, 08:28 PM   #15
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Quote:
 Originally Posted by chrisb271 Crikey ! the conversation is getting a bit advanced here for electricians I did some work at a neuclear power station where i used to live at burnham on sea,the plant was called hinkley point B. First went into production in 1976 but both reactors have now been shut down due to cracks in the tubes and cores. We do need to look into this energy production more as we can't keep burning off resources. In the U.K. there is quite a lot of wind farms springing up in various places,ugly looking critters but clean energy. Chris
But they kill the little birdies.

 11-07-2007, 09:11 PM #16 Senior Member     Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Salt Lake City Posts: 617 They recently re-opened San Onofre which produces 2000 Mega-watts of nuclear energy in Southern California of all places. There's still plenty of cheap coal to last well into the latter part of the next century, when we'll surely have a far better technology. The goal for the environmentalist's is to fight every new coal or nuclear plant until the price for electricity from existing plants justifies a power company to build a very expensive wind generation or photo voltaic setup __________________ Joe Momma was here
 11-08-2007, 05:00 AM #17 DGFVT     Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: VT Posts: 2,423 Here is a wood chip burning power plant producing 50 megawatts of electricity courtesy of the hard work of the Brothers and Sisters of IBEW Local 300. http://www.burlingtonelectric.com/Sp...cneilfacts.htm Carry On! Remember to “Burn a Tree and save a Barrel” __________________ Doubt All Before Believing Anything.......
 11-11-2007, 01:00 PM #18 Junior Member   Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 1 power in mathematical city >For integration of distributed forces on induced >current elements we can write: >F = ∫ IB x dL where " I " is loads current, B is >uniform magnetic flux density and " L " is electrical >path that closed with electrical loads in region of >uniform magnetic field. >Because of magnetic flux uniformity, we can write: >F = -IB ∫ dL >Also the loop of electrical path is closed by loads; so >we can write: >∫ dL = 0 and F = 0 This is misleading. First of all arguing that the line integral of dL is zero because it is a closed path only makes sense for calculating the force on a charge moving in an electric field. It does not apply to a current in a wire in a magnetic field. Second, the current in a closed path will not be in the same direction inside the magnetic field so the net torque will be non zero. Think of a square loop; two sides of the loop will have zero torque on them and the other two sides will have opposite torques so they will add. Third, in some generators the B field is rotating and the load winding is stationary. The varying B field induces a voltage on the load winding. More turns gives more voltage. Stronger B gives more voltage. As the load increases, it takes more work to rotate the B field. If B does not vary, you don't get any induced voltage. >What is your opinion? Tell the mayor to stick to poltics and let the sparky's deal with the electricity. Cheers, JSP EE but not a PE
 11-11-2007, 07:17 PM #19 Junior Member   Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Narrandera NSW Australia Posts: 8 power in mathematical city Think you are right there.Did all the integration and differentiation 30 years age to become an engineer.Can't blame the electricians for scratching their heads.Politicians win again dazzle with brilliance Baffle with bull..... Australia is trying to work out whether to start nuclear power plants or not. Used to live 5 miles from one in Scotland when I was young my kids didn't grow up with two heads but they were born over here and I left Scotland 28 years ago.We do have the responsibility to not stuff it up for our kids though. Still got that plug it in there's still a spare outlet on the wall.Power must be too cheap as yet to make folks think where it is all coming from.Things are so desperate in some suburbs of Sydney they take in generators on trucks to connect into the grid to kick demand along when summer hits. sounds to me like the bubble will burst one day soon.lights out and for a while maybe. I'm on a local emergency management committee who do desktop scenarios every year Disasters Natural, Man made and the like.how we manage emergency resources etc . they put up a power cut last year and ran the scenario for 1 week to play out what police and hospitals etc would do.Found that anarchy kicks in after 7 days with no power even the cops were running for shelter wanting food hand out by that time.We who look after the end users probably have a responsibility to tell the customer not to get too carried away with what they use or plan to put in to use more.
 11-11-2007, 07:26 PM #20 Member   Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: lilburn, ga Posts: 85 I bad wanna chuck it all and move to australia to be an electrician. Whats the market like?

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