question on MC usage - Electrician Talk - Professional Electrical Contractors Forum

BuzzKill · 03-11-2011, 04:21 PM

Saw some MC in a bar recently quite close to an ice machine scooper, with no lid, for drinks and a few beer taps, but real sink access was over six feet away I guess; should this be legal? couldn't find anything in the '05 causing an infraction, but being used in a commercial bar area made me think about it.

jwjrw · 03-11-2011, 04:25 PM

In a bar/ coffee shop setting you either use MC or you have to run flex or conduit. Mc seems to be most peoples choice here. As long as it is not exposed to physical damage it is legal.

BuzzKill · 03-11-2011, 04:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jwjrw

In a bar/ coffee shop setting you either use MC or you have to run flex or conduit. Mc seems to be most peoples choice here.

I see it around, sure, but so close to taps and ice machines makes me wonder, that it.

Cletis · 03-11-2011, 04:30 PM

If for some reason you can't run it internal I'd only use alum/flex or conduit with compression fittings since it's a wet location. There is going to be all kinds of gook spraying around for years. It would seep into the mc. I'd never use mc

Cletis · 03-11-2011, 04:32 PM

Meant Sealtight with Alum.

I'd treat it like a carwash. Ever see people clean bars at night. They spray down the whole bar sometimes. Water gets everywhere.

jwjrw · 03-11-2011, 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cletis

If for some reason you can't run it internal I'd only use alum/flex or conduit with compression fittings since it's a wet location. There is going to be all kinds of gook spraying around for years. It would seep into the mc. I'd never use mc

Wet location........

He is asking if it should be legal not what you would do.
They make MC listed for wet locations. I don't think what he is describing is a wet location. As long as the mc can't be damaged it is fine.

HARRY304E · 03-11-2011, 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BuzzKill

Saw some MC in a bar recently quite close to an ice machine scooper, with no lid, for drinks and a few beer taps, but real sink access was over six feet away I guess; should this be legal? couldn't find anything in the '05 causing an infraction, but being used in a commercial bar area made me think about it.

This is the 2011 NEC

II. Installation
330.10 Uses Permitted.

(A) General Uses.

Type MC cable shall be permitted as

follows:

(1) For services, feeders, and branch circuits.
(2) For power, lighting, control, and signal circuits.
(3) Indoors or outdoors.
(4) Exposed or concealed.
(5) To be direct buried where identified for such use.
(6) In cable tray where identified for such use.
(7) In any raceway.
(8) As aerial cable on a messenger.
(9) In hazardous (classified) locations where specifically
permitted by other articles in this

Code.

(10) In dry locations and embedded in plaster finish on brick

or other masonry except in damp or wet locations.
(11) In wet locations where any of the following conditions
are met:
a. The metallic covering is impervious to moisture.
b. A moisture-impervious jacket is provided under
the metal covering.
c. The insulated conductors under the metallic covering
are listed for use in wet locations, and a corrosionresistant
jacket is provided over the metallic sheath.
(12) Where single-conductor cables are used, all phase
conductors and, where used, the grounded conductor
shall be grouped together to minimize induced voltage
on the sheath.

(B) Specific Uses.

Type MC cable shall be permitted to be

installed in compliance with Parts II and III of Article 725 and

770.133 as applicable and in accordance with 330.10(B)(1)
through (B)(4).

(1) Cable Tray. Type

(1) Cable Tray.

Type MC cable installed in cable tray shall

comply with 392.10, 392.12, 392.18, 392.20, 392.22,
392.30, 392.46, 392.56, 392.60(C), and 392.80.

(2) Direct Buried.

Direct-buried cable shall comply with

300.5 or 300.50, as appropriate.

(3) Installed as Service-Entrance Cable.

Type MC cable

installed as service-entrance cable shall be permitted in accordance

with 230.43

4) Installed Outside of Buildings or Structures or as
Aerial Cable. Type MC cable installed outside of buildings
or structures or as aerial cable shall comply with 225.10,
396.10, and 396.12.

Informational Note: The “Uses Permitted” is not an allinclusive

list.

Cletis · 03-11-2011, 04:36 PM

Yeah. You would have to use that coated southwire mc it looks like. I was a bartender for a long time and I know what happens there behind the bar well. Wet and Sticky and Abused.

Rockyd · 03-11-2011, 04:40 PM

Harry, you missed the article!

it's 330.30 Securing and supporting, plus what the local AHJ says...

BuzzKill · 03-11-2011, 04:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HARRY304E

This is the 2011 NEC

II. Installation
330.10 Uses Permitted.

(A) General Uses.

Type MC cable shall be permitted as

follows:

(1) For services, feeders, and branch circuits.
(2) For power, lighting, control, and signal circuits.
(3) Indoors or outdoors.
(4) Exposed or concealed.
(5) To be direct buried where identified for such use.
(6) In cable tray where identified for such use.
(7) In any raceway.
(8) As aerial cable on a messenger.
(9) In hazardous (classified) locations where specifically
permitted by other articles in this

Code.

(10) In dry locations and embedded in plaster finish on brick

or other masonry except in damp or wet locations.
(11) In wet locations where any of the following conditions
are met:
a. The metallic covering is impervious to moisture.
b. A moisture-impervious jacket is provided under
the metal covering.
c. The insulated conductors under the metallic covering
are listed for use in wet locations, and a corrosionresistant
jacket is provided over the metallic sheath.
(12) Where single-conductor cables are used, all phase
conductors and, where used, the grounded conductor
shall be grouped together to minimize induced voltage
on the sheath.

(B) Specific Uses.

Type MC cable shall be permitted to be

installed in compliance with Parts II and III of Article 725 and

770.133 as applicable and in accordance with 330.10(B)(1)
through (B)(4).

(1) Cable Tray. Type

(1) Cable Tray.

Type MC cable installed in cable tray shall

comply with 392.10, 392.12, 392.18, 392.20, 392.22,
392.30, 392.46, 392.56, 392.60(C), and 392.80.

(2) Direct Buried.

Direct-buried cable shall comply with

300.5 or 300.50, as appropriate.

(3) Installed as Service-Entrance Cable.

Type MC cable

installed as service-entrance cable shall be permitted in accordance

with 230.43

4) Installed Outside of Buildings or Structures or as
Aerial Cable. Type MC cable installed outside of buildings
or structures or as aerial cable shall comply with 225.10,
396.10, and 396.12.

Informational Note: The “Uses Permitted” is not an allinclusive

list.

yeah that's a little different than the '05 i keep in the truck!

electricmanscott · 03-11-2011, 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cletis

I was a bartender for a long time and I know what happens there behind the bar well. Wet and Sticky and Abused.

Sounds like a good night.

HARRY304E · 03-11-2011, 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rockyd

Harry, you missed the article!

it's 330.30 Securing and supporting, plus what the local AHJ says...

Here you go rock.

.

330.30 Securing and Supporting.
(A) General.

Type MC cable shall be supported and secured
by staples, cable ties, straps, hangers, or similar fittings
or other approved means designed and installed so as
not to damage the cable.

(B) Securing.

Unless otherwise provided, cables shall be
secured at intervals not exceeding 1.8 m (6 ft). Cables containing
four or fewer conductors sized no larger than
10 AWG shall be secured within 300 mm (12 in.) of every
box, cabinet, fitting, or other cable termination.

(C) Supporting.

Unless otherwise provided, cables shall
be supported at intervals not exceeding 1.8 m (6 ft).
Horizontal runs of Type MC cable installed in wooden
or metal framing members or similar supporting means
shall be considered supported and secured where such support
does not exceed 1.8-m (6-ft) intervals.

(D) Unsupported Cables.

Type MC cable shall be permitted
to be unsupported where the cable:
(1) Is fished between access points through concealed spaces
in finished buildings or structures and supporting is impractical;
or
(2) Is not more than 1.8 m (6 ft) in length from the last
point of cable support to the point of connection to
luminaires or other electrical equipment and the cable
and point of connection are within an accessible ceiling.
For the purpose of this section, Type MC cable

fittings shall be permitted as a means of cable support.

Mr Rewire · 03-11-2011, 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cletis

If for some reason you can't run it internal I'd only use alum/flex or conduit with compression fittings since it's a wet location. There is going to be all kinds of gook spraying around for years. It would seep into the mc. I'd never use mc

Buy a code book and look at art 100 definitions.

Cletis · 03-12-2011, 06:52 PM

Ok. I went out and bought a code book and looked at it for the first time. Looked at 100.

What about 300.6 and 300.6 (D) and 330.12(1) 330.12(2)b and 314.15

or 300.6 (C)2 ???

Mr Rewire · 03-12-2011, 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cletis

Ok. I went out and bought a code book and looked at it for the first time. Looked at 100.

What about 300.6 and 300.6 (D) and 330.12(1) 330.12(2)b and 314.15

or 300.6 (C)2 ???

What year,don't tell me you bought a used code book.

330.12(2)b- exsposed to cinder fills ,strong chlorides,caustic alkalides,or vapors of chlorine or hydrocloric acids
really Cletis what kind of drinks are you thinking they serve??

Cletis · 03-12-2011, 07:48 PM

Those are all agents that cleaning crews use to clean up the stainless steel area on and around bars. they don't just wipe carefully, they slap and splash it on as well. Clorox is #1 item they use. It gets everywhere

Mr Rewire · 03-12-2011, 07:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cletis

Those are all agents that cleaning crews use to clean up the stainless steel area on and around bars. they don't just wipe carefully, they slap and splash it on as well. Clorox is #1 item they use. It gets everywhere

Nobody uses pure clorox to clean with Cletis .

Cletis · 03-12-2011, 09:22 PM

I was mostly talking about "vapors of chlorine". There are plenty of that when they clean. Doesn't say what concentration just vapors of chlorine.

Just sayin

Salvatoreg02 · 03-14-2011, 10:47 PM

Metal clad must be used in such establishment if the seating capacity is somewhere between 50-100 look it up. Under Metal clad cables under permitted uses!

Salvatoreg02 · 03-14-2011, 10:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HARRY304E

This is the 2011 NEC

II. Installation
330.10 Uses Permitted.

(A) General Uses.
Type MC cable shall be permitted as

follows:
(1) For services, feeders, and branch circuits.
(2) For power, lighting, control, and signal circuits.
(3) Indoors or outdoors.
(4) Exposed or concealed.
(5) To be direct buried where identified for such use.
(6) In cable tray where identified for such use.
(7) In any raceway.
(8) As aerial cable on a messenger.
(9) In hazardous (classified) locations where specifically
permitted by other articles in this

Code.

(10) In dry locations and embedded in plaster finish on brick
or other masonry except in damp or wet locations.
(11) In wet locations where any of the following conditions
are met:
a. The metallic covering is impervious to moisture.
b. A moisture-impervious jacket is provided under
the metal covering.
c. The insulated conductors under the metallic covering
are listed for use in wet locations, and a corrosionresistant
jacket is provided over the metallic sheath.
(12) Where single-conductor cables are used, all phase
conductors and, where used, the grounded conductor
shall be grouped together to minimize induced voltage
on the sheath.
(B) Specific Uses.

Type MC cable shall be permitted to be

installed in compliance with Parts II and III of Article 725 and
770.133 as applicable and in accordance with 330.10(B)(1)
through (B)(4).

(1) Cable Tray. Type

(1) Cable Tray.
Type MC cable installed in cable tray shall
comply with 392.10, 392.12, 392.18, 392.20, 392.22,
392.30, 392.46, 392.56, 392.60(C), and 392.80.

(2) Direct Buried.
Direct-buried cable shall comply with
300.5 or 300.50, as appropriate.

(3) Installed as Service-Entrance Cable.
Type MC cable
installed as service-entrance cable shall be permitted in accordance

with 230.43

4) Installed Outside of Buildings or Structures or as
Aerial Cable. Type MC cable installed outside of buildings
or structures or as aerial cable shall comply with 225.10,
396.10, and 396.12.
Informational Note: The “Uses Permitted” is not an allinclusive
list.

Yes we know this!!! BUT YOU MUST CHECK ALSO PLACES OF ASSEMBLY AS it will tell you if MC IS ALLOWED.