Switch? - Electrician Talk - Professional Electrical Contractors Forum

John Valdes · 08-20-2009, 01:52 PM

Does a ceiling fan require a switch (disco). Or can it be hot all the time and be controlled only by the pull chains?
I have an issue where the light on the fan is switched, but the fan is not switched. Fan uses pull chains only.

This is a question from another forum and I say it needs a disco (switch). Some others are fine with the fan being hot all the time. What say you..........Thanks John

macmikeman · 08-20-2009, 02:10 PM

Your answer will be found in 430.81 (A).

mcclary's electrical · 08-20-2009, 02:10 PM

It does not have to be switched,,,,,,if you hook a flood light up with no switch,,,,,just a motion and photocell,,,,,that's legal and so is the fan. When I go in houses that the feed comes into the ceiling box first, the possibility is there to hook it up straight and use chains or remote.

macmikeman · 08-20-2009, 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcclary's electrical

It does not have to be switched,,,,,,if you hook a flood light up with no switch,,,,,just a motion and photocell,,,,,that's legal and so is the fan. When I go in houses that the feed comes into the ceiling box first, the possibility is there to hook it up straight and use chains or remote.

Floodlights and photocells do not have motors. The issue is the fan has a motor. It depends on the horsepower rating of the fan motor. Most are ok. See above post for code.

John Valdes · 08-20-2009, 02:24 PM

How would we not know to use 430.83(C)?

Are ceiling fans 1/8 hp or less. If they are over 1/8 hp then the article above would apply. Right?

KayJay · 08-20-2009, 03:07 PM

I would say that since 422.18 mentions support of ceiling fans, it seems that the NEC must consider ceiling fans appliances, so I would say the requirements of 422.31 would apply. If less than 1/8 HP… the branch circuit overcurrent device would be permitted to be the disconnecting means.

Here’s my question though…what if the light kit and fan motor combined are over 300 Watts or 1/8HP?
Sounds like now you would need a wall switch or a lock on either the cb or wall switch if not within sight per 422.31[b].

macmikeman · 08-20-2009, 03:23 PM

I could really muddy up the waters by asking what if the lights were on one circuit and the fan was on another circuit?

KayJay · 08-20-2009, 03:52 PM

That could lead to an interesting situation... I suppose on one hand it could be considered two separate loads... or on the other hand it could be considered as a single permanently connected appliance.
I think that's what they call an NEC circle jerk.

Richard Rowe · 08-20-2009, 04:43 PM

If I remember correctly the small to medium size fans draw from 60 to 85 watts not including the lights. I have seen some of the bigger ones draw around 125 watts but that’s the most I can remember. There are separate leads for the motor and lights. Range hoods with exhaust fan and lights come to mind but I don’t remember if they have two sets of leads. Anyway if I remember right(and if I am wrong I will be told) a horsepower is around 750 watts so f the fan is big enough you would be correct.

MDShunk · 08-20-2009, 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by macmikeman

I could really muddy up the waters by asking what if the lights were on one circuit and the fan was on another circuit?

It's a pretty rare fan that you can even wire up that way, since most of them have the neutral in common to the motor and the light kit in the canopy of the fan.

steelersman · 08-20-2009, 04:56 PM

I've personally always wired them with a switch, since that's what I was taught and that's also what I've always believed to be code, but now I'm wondering if this isn't another false belief that turns out to not be true as has happened with a few other things I thought to be code but weren't.

steelersman · 08-20-2009, 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KayJay

what if the light kit and fan motor combined are over 300 Watts or 1/8HP?
Sounds like now you would need a wall switch or a lock on either the cb or wall switch if not within sight per 422.31[b].

Well the lights aren't a motor load. You don't measure them in HP so they shouldn't matter to the code article mentioned if it's being judged by the size of the motor in HP.

Magnettica · 08-20-2009, 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steelersman

I've personally always wired them with a switch, since that's what I was taught and that's also what I've always believed to be code, but now I'm wondering if this isn't another false belief that turns out to not be true as has happened with a few other things I thought to be code but weren't.

I have a fan here in my apartment that isn't switched, just a pull chain for the fan, but the light is switched.

steelersman · 08-20-2009, 05:18 PM

I've seen them wired like that alot also. And I don't have a problem with it. In fact I personally wouldn't want a wall switch for the fan, since you need to go to the fan itself and pull the chain in order to change the speed, unless you have a remote control or speed switch.

Kevin J · 08-20-2009, 06:18 PM

I don't know what the correct answer would be, but I just installed 3 ceil. fans today that had handheld remotes. Feed gets spliced straight through, and fan is hot all the time.

mcclary's electrical · 08-20-2009, 06:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevin J

I don't know what the correct answer would be, but I just installed 3 ceil. fans today that had handheld remotes. Feed gets spliced straight through, and fan is hot all the time.

my point exactly

bigtoe1340 · 08-20-2009, 07:17 PM

Interesting question, I would have to say no, you do not need a switch simple because so many have been installed this way but I really don't know. I always put in a switch anyway because it's a better job unless the fans have remotes.
Tony Dolce
Meade Electric
http://www.meadeelectric.biz

Selectric · 08-20-2009, 07:18 PM

Technicaly is not the pull chain a switch/disco? Is it not HP rated? The disconnect just happens to be an intragal part a UL listed assembly. If the fan was truly 'hot' all the time, only controlled by the breaker, then you would only be able to turn it on and off by the breaker.

steelersman · 08-20-2009, 07:31 PM

For the purpose of servicing the fan it would still be hot on the line side of the pull chain switch, so therefore I always understood it to be that you had to have a disconnecting means.

Selectric · 08-20-2009, 07:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steelersman

For the purpose of servicing the fan it would still be hot on the line side of the pull chain switch, so therefore I always understood it to be that you had to have a disconnecting means.

Yes but, try and think of it a different way. You pulled the chain so that the fan is off. Now that it is off you want to work on the fan. You can do so with out fear of the fan coming on because you can see the switch and you know it is off. The catch 22 is in order to work on the fan you must remove it from the j-box but the line side of the disconnect is still energized unless you turn off the breaker.

It would be just the same if you had a wall switch. If you left the W/S on and pulled the chain so that the fan is off. You would turn the W/S off to remove the fan instead of going to the breaker.

The pull chain is the listed disconnect for the fan. It is just not ideal from a service stand point.

I personally hate pull chains and install dimmers and FSCs whenever possible unless the customer does not want the added expense.