wdestar

Hello

My name is Dan and an industrial electrician with some 22 years experience in the field of electrical troubleshooting.

I've run the gauntlet - from small time commercial and residential installations to troubleshooting machine logic on the higher end for companies such as Ford, GM, Goodrich, etc., blah blah blah... who cares?

Anyway, I have developed a software application that will surely rid most companies of electricians that aren't qualified to troubleshoot relay logic... and relay logic only. This is by no means a test of electrical qualifications overall, so to speak.


To the experienced electrician, It might seem a breeze - but then again - I thought I was smart once also.

Dan

*Contact use for more information*

brian john

Why is it that when an electrician becomes SPECIALIZED, he feels the need to degrade, isolate other wise slam he fellow electricians?

When I was doing construction I had some apprentices that made fun of the porta potty cleaners, yelling rude comments at them. My response,
"Be thankful they do the job they do and the job you do not want to do, cause other wise you'd be out there cleaning the crappers out. We all have work to do lets get it done.

Rong

I for one appreciate the pota potty cleaners!!!! I agree with you Brian we should not look down on people cuz we believe they are beneath us. I sometimes watch Mike Rowes dirtiest jobs and am greatful l aint the one doing that certain job. I guess the older we get the more we appreciate things more.

And no I do not think that I am qualified to work on logic circuits. That aint my bailiwick but I don't feel like less of an electrician because of that.

Qualified - having the qualities, accomplishments, etc., that fit a person for some function, office, or the like.

__________________
I too am bilingual :
I speak bad English and worser English.

brian john

And some of the jobs Mike Rowe does, many people never knew existed. Chicken sex inspector.

Kletis

Like...watching chickens...do it? Or does it mean picking up the chicken and determining what the sex is? Either way it is an odd job!!

__________________
Kletis...

John Valdes

If you are talking true physical "Relay logic" you are already obsolete yourself. Computers and PLC's are now and the future.

Now, when you invent a specialized program that will install all this fancy equipment, I will be on your band wagon.
And one more thing; Anyone can be replaced, including you.

brian john

Hey every four or eight years we replace the President and we continue on like nothing happened, so if he can go so can I.

wdestar

Evidently, I failed to make the point of my own humility and the true purpose of the software I’ve designed.

When describing my credentials, I added, "blah blah blah... who cares?" because, despite others’ opinions, I don’t consider myself “special” at all. And those who know me personally can testify as much. I place little regard in my “supposed” abilities because at every turn, I find I know a lot less than I think.

As far as scrubbing toilets, I've done that – even somewhat recently. When my business didn't go as well as anticipated, I returned to my old job at a much lesser pay and position - and - though not my job, when the men's room flooded on occasion, I mopped it up. Not because I was told to or had to... just because it needed done.

I meant no disrespect to anyone here… I respect very much the education and discipline required to become a licensed electrician and even to those who lack such, but aspire to be. At least they’re learning a trade.

Having said all that, there exists job applicants who embellish “a little” when presenting a resume. My software is a litmus test to what their relay logic troubleshooting abilities really are, regardless of their stated qualifications.

And finally, someone brought up the point of PLCs taking over relay logic. To some degree, that’s true. But, for any substantial load, there is no substitute for relays and contactors. And, many factories have yet to upgrade to PLCs.

John Valdes

No one ever said a proccessor or their outputs could handle heavy loads. but they can tell peripheral devices (relays & contactors) to start them. I have built many panels consisting of dozens of relays. Now I buy a PLC and loose all that extra cost and labor. Of course relays and contactors will always be with us, but not to the extent they were in the past. Contactors are on the bubble too, due to to soft starts and VFD's.
I just have a hard time understanding why someone would put so much hard work and effort into something that very soon could become a thing of the past.
You seem like an intelligent person. You want to do something that will actually help in this area of expertise?
Design a program that you input what you want the machine or devices to do. Then it draws a schematic for that particular application. No one has done this yet and I am waiting

brian john

Sorry, I missed you point by a mile, to me it read as being high and mighty, Once again sorry.

chrisb271

Sometimes you can't beat the silplicity of relays and timers instead of VFD's and PLC's.

PLC's in particular and the programming of such is a very unfriendly area to be in,i've spent a number of hours trawling through ladder code to find a bug,not easy,quite frustrating !.

Relays don't suffer from the heat either,VFD's tend to trip on excessive heat,i built a panel recently that had four VFD's in and it was a problem from the start with heat build up,in the end i took them out and went back to contactor,relay and timers.

Chris

wdestar

No problem. I figured I was misunderstood but I wanted to clarify my position... that's all.

wdestar

[quote=John Valdes;Design a program that you input what you want the machine or devices to do. Then it draws a schematic for that particular application. No one has done this yet and I am waiting [/quote]

John

Are you sure there's nothing out there that can do that already? Anyway, if you could provide more specific details, I'd consider it.

John Valdes

Nope, nothing out there that can do that YET.

Chris, You removed perfectly new VFD's and put in contactors? I'm surprised you still are employed. Yes, VFD's produce heat and that is why you should have done your homework before installing them. DC drives produce heat, and you cannot replace one with a contactor.

PLC's are as you say not user friendly. They are if you do your homework. If you are in an industrial environment, you better get used to these devices. And most important of all, plan your jobs and get help if required.

TheRick

If you know what to look for and how to look it is generally quick and easy to find a "bug" PLC programming takes time to learn, but if you are willing to invest the time, it will save you a lot of frustration.

Did the VFD manufacturer not provide minimum requirements for enclosure size, and/or air flow? This is why you need to READ the manual before installing the equipment.

Relay logic is sometimes fun to play with, but as for simplicity and functionality you can not beat VFDs and PLCs. There is a reason that every manufacturing facility in the world that can afford it uses both!

Relay logic works just fine, but with PLC control you have many more options, and you can make changes to your controls by simply changing the ladder logic and not having to re-wire or re-configure a relay cabinet.

__________________
Rick Boudreau
TASK FORCE SAFE INSPECTION TEAM LEADER
Tal Afar, Iraq
"fool-proof systems do not take into account the ingenuity of fools"

John Valdes

Excellent post Rick!

p_logix

The whole purpose of PLCs are to get rid of hundreds of relays and hard wiring, aux contacts, etc.......For instance, You can land one ethernet cable to a panel view power it up 24 volt or 120v, and build as many buttons as you wish. All touch screen HMI(Human machine interface), How easy is that? A PLC is an Electricians TOOL for troubleshooting and reducing installing costs.


Basically VFDs cannot handle motors when the motor windings are starting to break down. I have seen where a VFD will Fault out, but if you throw that motor across the line it will run. That is exactly what you are doing by going back to a contactor. Take a reading with a megger on that motor you are talking about. You need at least 1000 ohms per Volt, so read at least 480,000 ohms or about a half meg on that motor if it is a 480 volt motor and you shouldn't have a problem with that VFD.

And Your your Right John Nothing can magically do that yet

__________________
p_logix
"Meggers Don't Lie, Electricians Lie". Go LAKERS!!!!

TheRick

When one of you guys finds it (or develops it) let me know!

__________________
Rick Boudreau
TASK FORCE SAFE INSPECTION TEAM LEADER
Tal Afar, Iraq
"fool-proof systems do not take into account the ingenuity of fools"

John Valdes

So true. I worked for a motor shop for a few years. Sometimes the VFD would trip on ground fault, but even our high tech equipment could not see it.
In some instances we would have to ship the motor back to the manufacturer just to verify that is was truly a ground fault.

We inventoried about $250,000 worth of IEC (Metric) motors. The motors were all rated as dual voltage. I'm talking six lead single speed. One of our senior advisor's realized from an engineering standpoint that they were really not dual voltage. But right on the nameplate it stated dual voltage and provided the hook-up diagram. Wye for high and delta for low voltage. After a couple years of discussions regarding this, the manufacturer started to use 9 leads for dual voltage motors and six lead for single voltage. But we did sell and repair these original motors with little cause for alarm. Some are still operating in this configuration.

I personally prefer the 12 lead motor myself as it gives you so much flexibility. Unfortunately it has caused problems with the plant electricians. I can count many that were wired for start when they should have been wired for run. Causing 1/2 the rated Hp, low current and smoke within a couple of hours depending on the load.

chrisb271

Hi guys,i understand PLC's and VFD's are very much the in thing now.
Mr Valdes summed it up above really,the motors we put in at the time had been stood for some time and maybe suffered from an ingress of moisture,run for so long then trip the VFD out.
Contactors and overload relays are a little more forgiving and " hold in " these will stay in for a while till things settle down.

I spend a lot of my time at a local recycling place where " Time down is money down " the machine in question coughs out £3000 per hour ( $6000 ) so when it goes offline then pressure is on plus the 30 staff who work it are all unhappy as they have to stand around,the owner is unhappy as he's got the wages bill etc etc

Chris