480sparky

Are you sure? It may look real, and sound real, and even felt real.....

But are you sure it really is real?

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In winter, why do we try to keep the house as warm as it was in summer when we complained about the heat?

waco

Your perceptions are not my problem. I question the relevancy of "unbalanced loads" to single phase, residential users, although they are and always have been relevant to the PUCOs.

None of you have shown an example of a multiwire "balanced load" in residential use and obviously, none of you care to give it any thought.

I don't recall ever mentioning "imagination" in the discussion, but I did mention definition and now, the relevancy of that definition.

So, give me an example of a multiwire "balanced load" in residential use or STFU and just give it some thought.

Not my problem.

Nope, quite a bit of childish snickering, but nothing about "imagination" other than my not being able to "imagine" a "balanced" 120 volt load in residential service.

steelersman

You are a strange dude. Why are you arguing about the theory that the neutral carries the unbalanced current? You say that nobody has given an example of a multiwire balanced load. Well let's pretend that none exist, because I can't think of one, so therefore maybe there isn't one unles you intentionaly wire one as in the case of 2 100 watt bulbs as inphase277 mentioned. Well since there aren't any (let's say) then the neutral is always going to carry some current back on it. And it will never reach full ampacity as it can only carry the difference between the 2 (unbalanced) circuits.

Toronto Sparky

Unless one circuit is off and the other is at full load.

Never did believe in downsizing neutrals.. (they still do that?)
Last I heard most jobs now spec the main neutral get doubled up. (I think it's due to harmonics in electronic ballasts and stuff)

InPhase277

Waco, nobody is saying that there is such a thing as a balanced load. It is exactly the opposite that we are talking about. Unbalanced loads cause the neutral to carry some current, but the amount of current in the neutral is the DIFFERENCE between the currents in the two hot legs. We are talking theory, and the theory says, and reality proves, that the neutral carries the unbalanced (that is, difference) current. Period. Do the test. Do the test. Do the test.

brian john

Ballast are the least of the worries when it comes to harmonics. Having completed 100's of load studies on 480/277 strictly lighting panels I can say HARMONICS are the least of the issue s IN A LIGHTING PANEL. VFD;s. PCs, rectifiers yes.

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Brian John
Leesburg, VA

MDShunk

Most of us are just electricians instead. Sorry for the confusion.

Carry on...

__________________
One reason not to give DIY advice:
Catch a man a fish and you can sell it to him.
Teach a man to fish and you’ve ruined a good business opportunity.

brian john

Waco insults where thrown in your direction? What was stated are facts you are the type of guy that is most likely smart but arrogant and like to stir the sh*t. When you are wrong you ill never admit it. You will throw BS out at everyone then wonder in your own small minded way, why everyone (or some) think you are an arse.

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Brian John
Leesburg, VA

waco

When I'm wrong, I will admit it. This discussion wasn't about right and wrong, it was about an oft used expression that has no real relevancy to anything we do in residential wiring. Apparently, the expression is near and ear to many of you, why I sure don't know and sure don't care.

So, let me know when you discover a "unbalanced" 120 volt, single phase load in a residence.

brian john

Of course you will. Never doubted it.

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Brian John
Leesburg, VA

steelersman

Unbalanced with what? If it's sharing a neutral with another 120 volt circuit then you bet it will be unalanced in comparison to the other circuit.

Loose Neutral

I was on a job in a school working 3-11. I was working on fire alarm and 2 other guys were changing panel guts and it was after dark. All of a sudden the lights flashed like a camera flash. I was like what was that and the other guys said i don't know. I looked in this computer room and there was a fire at a surge suppressor, Like a dummy i ran in there and pulled it apart with linemans. I could hear the computers crackling. Turn's out someone years earlier who ran that circuit landed the mwc conductor's in one panel next to the one they were working on and landed the neutral in the panel they were working on. When they were lifting the neutrals. Bam 240 volt across the 2 hot's and that started the fire and blew about 20 computers. wasn't our guys fault took pictures and moved on.

sparky028

All of these answers are very good. But can I just ask one question? Why exactly is the unbalanced load returning on the neutral. I am sure that it has everything to do with each "hot" being out of phase with one another. So no phase is fully + at the time of another. But I still feel unclear on the topic. I know what the neutral does, but not why it does it. Could someone please clear my head with as much detail as possible. Thanks

sparky028

landed the mwc conductor's in one panel

Sorry, what is a mwc conductor? Thanks

sparky028

Hello, Waco

I just wanted to see if you can clarify my mind on your previous post. In a single phase system (residential for the most part). You mentioned that the current on the neutral conductor is always balanced no matter what. But what if some home owner used a 14/3 romex cable to feed 2 separate loads but put each hot wire of that cable on the same phase in the panel. My question is would the neural wire then be unbalanced? Thanks J

InPhase277

The current in the neutral would be the sum of the current in each leg. On opposite phases, the currents are equal and opposite, so they cancel, and no current flows on the neutral. If they aren't equal, the difference flows on the neutral.

noexpert

Please excuse a brief hijack here, but since someone brought it up ealier - could you direct me to info on harmonics? It is one of those areas I would like to understand better.
Thanks

brian john

Do a Google Search and any particular questions?

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Brian John
Leesburg, VA

InPhase277

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=%22harmonic+currents%22

dogman

Are 5 wire meter loops legal, 3 down to the top meter, 2 up to the consumers side.