What do you guys think??? Licensing - Electrician Talk - Professional Electrical Contractors Forum

Orionguy · 08-01-2009, 02:21 PM

What do you guys think about licensing in proportion to wages and should states make guys they consider "journeyman" test and get a state journeyman license (not a city card) and go to continuing ed. to renew it, to weed out the truly unqualified.

I like to browse craigslist for jobs now and then and came across someones rant about a post of someone offering $8/hour for someone to wire his kitchen, and how it kills the wage here in NC when people do that. I responded with this and got flagged and deleted within an hour because no one wants to hear the truth of the matter:

I dont agree with most of that, this is not the "hardest state and national testing....." our Unlimited code test for a electrical contractor is the practically the same test needed to be taken by ALL states in new england (where im originally from) to just simply work for a contractor as a journeyman, but with less time per question (70 questions 3 hours). Leading to the second point, these "clowns" offering low wages for work is not the reason for the underpaid "skilled tradesman", its the lack of proven ability, no one journeyman wants to test to prove his skill, ("i dont need no license to work...."), because there are more than 70% of journeyman in this state that will fail even the easiest the limited exam, allowing the contractors to pay the low wages. Do you really think they are charging the customer less than up north where the pay scale is higher?? Nope. Focus your abilities on these unlicensed fake contractors charging 20 an hour for service calls. They're killing jobs and running our trade thorough the mud.

The other thing is the union, its proven that states with union involvement brings the wages of all contractors up. You dont necessarily have to work for the union but their presence offers us "scabs"

higher wages and prevailing wage on state and federal jobs ($44/hr is a great wage). People are afraid of what they dont understand so naturally they push the union out of North Carolina nd view licensing as "the man" trying to control you, no one views the benefits but will complain about the consequences.

Whats your thoughts??

**MDShunk** · 08-01-2009, 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orionguy

Whats your thoughts??

I think that as long as there are consumers, there will be some consumers trying to save a buck. As long as there are men with skills who need money, there will be some men willing to work for whatever someone is paying. Don't let it rent space in your brain. That's the way it will always be.

Orionguy · 08-01-2009, 02:36 PM

I find it funny though in this state they have recently pushed their apprenticeship program, and there's guys the companies consider foreman, now going through the apprentice program to learn the essential ABC's of the trade, that is so far backwards. To top that the same guys running jobs with the company truck are enrolled in the apprentice program and are representing these companies in the annual fair for electrical apprentices, competing against "green" guys starting out. Its like taking college guys and letting them play high school ball. Its not something I lose sleep over but as a contractor its frustrating to find qualified men.

Apprentice -----> Journeyman -----> Foreman ----> Supervisor

NC it seems

Laborer ----> Journeyman ------> Foreman ----> Apprentice
Qualified Guy????

drsparky · 08-01-2009, 02:38 PM

Strict licensing keeps the riff raff at bay.

**MDShunk** · 08-01-2009, 02:38 PM

I don't know anything about North Carolina, but I feel pretty good about saying that you don't have nearly enough information to characterize the whole state the way you are attempting to.

**Dennis Alwon** · 08-01-2009, 02:42 PM

In NC non union nomenclature there is no use of the words apprentice, journeyman, etc.

We have a helper, a mechanic or someone in between.

Orionguy · 08-01-2009, 02:46 PM

Before going off on my own ive worked for to 2 of the biggest companies in NC and few little shops and it was all the same. No qualifications are required to work for a contractor, just some shiny tools and a big mouth. I submitted my resume with references and owners of companies I have previous worked for and both large companies hired me solely on the fact I came from CT, and did not call my references. I may not be spot on but Im real close. My question was on how you feel about licensing for journeyman and the licensing to wage comparison though

**MDShunk** · 08-01-2009, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orionguy

My question was on how you feel about licensing for journeyman and the licensing to wage comparison though

I try real hard not to feel anything about anything. Thoughts and decisions derived from feelings are often unsound.

Men should be compensated (paid) based on all their merits when taken as a composite. Licensing plays into that somewhat, in that it took some effort to obtain licensing. There are many cases, though, where I strongly believe that an unlicensed top performer rightfully should be compensated more than a licensed staff member who simply puts in his time every day.

**Dennis Alwon** · 08-01-2009, 02:56 PM

Personally I don't care what your qualifications are when you come to me looking for a job. You can tell me how great you are and you can be lying with every word. A journey may have the understanding but can also be a worthless worker so..... I'll hire you at some agreed wage and you can prove to me you are worth more or you can prove you are not worth what I am paying you. In either case I will know in a week or so.

Knowledge is valuable, no doubt, but I'd rather train someone who knows nothing then work with a worthless worker who knows the code.

I am not sure higher wages are the answer to the problems esp. right now. Commercial is very different than resi work around this area. My guy can make more money being a helper on a commercial job with 70 other guys there than he can working with me doing resi work. You cannot compare the experience , in my opinion.

It seems people are drawn to one or the other but I don't know any commercial contractor around here paying workers $40/hr unless they are the supervisors of the crew.

**MDShunk** · 08-01-2009, 03:04 PM

Licensing absolutely does not translate into your success on the jobsite, or your ability to make your employer money. I think we all know people who, for one reason or another, have collected more licenses and certifications than one man right fully ought to have. Often, these professional license collectors can't wire their way out of a wet paper bag. The fact that a person has obtained a license iis one mark in their favor, but certainly only one item to be taken into consideration. Things like time in the trade, exposure to different facets of electrical work, and past performance are biggies in my mind. They rate higher than any tradecraft licensing, to me. The way I see things, any man can obtain a license, but not every man can actually do this work and do it well.

**Dennis Alwon** · 08-01-2009, 03:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MDShunk

Licensing absolutely does not translate into your success on the jobsite, or your ability to make your employer money. Often, these professional license collectors can't wire their way out of a wet paper bag. The fact that a person has obtained a license iis one mark in their favor, but certainly only one item to be taken into consideration. Things like time in the trade, exposure to different facets of electrical work, and past performance are biggies in my mind. They rate higher than any tradecraft licensing, to me. The way I see things, any man can obtain a license, but not every man can actually do this work and do it well.

Hey we finally agree on something.

Orionguy · 08-01-2009, 03:32 PM

Dennis:
The 40/hr comment was prevailing wage (totally different)

But I do see your point, and you fall under MD's post that I dont know every detail of the state, and your one of the few contractors that care about personal performance. Yes, there are a ton of slackers in CT that have a journeyman license but they can answer a great deal more questions and have the knowledge (attributed to mandated continuing ed), but sometimes fall under the "get paid more to do less" saying. Licensing simply gets the "what do you know" out of the way, the performance issue will plague any state or trade. I once worked with a guy who passed is exam was lazy to all getup and could not wire a house to save his life, but he knew what heights everything was suppost to go where to firecaulk, what size wire to use and so on (benefits) but could not apply it in the time alotted (disadvantage) And didn't misinterpret the code and duct tape the electrical panel can because "the code says to fill all holes", ive seen that recently

I completely agree getting someone who wants to better there career and train them along the way, but alot of contractors look at the bottom line and cant be bothered with that, but complain about the personnel. They want the guy they can pay 8/hr call a mechanic and run pipe like he's the flash, they dont care if hes knows why hes doing it because they got a guy for that, and then they got a guy to guide him and so on. With all that payroll if the first guy was "skilled" hed make more (in most circumstances). Residential is different and the rate tends to be slightly lower I agree, insane competition. My opinion but a journeyman (mechanic,JW,leadman....) that has the time put in at least 5 or 6 years in the trade and can pass our limited electrical exam, and is productive. Should make at least 18-20/ hr. (commercial) 15-17 (residential), when most commercial companies start with 14-15/hr, I guess you get what you pay for, less qualified and care for the job when they feel theres no incentive. This should be a high respected trade for the time and training needed to be successful, but when you can be a manager or overnight stock at walmart and make the same, alot of people lose respect and it becomes a "job" and not a career.

**Dennis Alwon** · 08-01-2009, 03:40 PM

When I started my business in 1980 the EC was making more money than the GC it seemed. We were the best paid trade. Somehow that has changed and plumbers, HVAC guys are putting us to shame. Not sure why.. I remember bidding 20,000 jobs and losing them to someone at $15,000-- this was years ago. Fortunately I don't do much bidding any more-- T & M even on the houses that are $100,000 in electrical. We have a special niche here in Chapel Hill and so far it has worked well. I have my builders and have been very fortunate.

Orionguy · 08-01-2009, 03:49 PM

I once knew that guy...lol....The two man crew that gets all his material out of his garage that came from over buying materials from other jobs, where the customer gets 6 outlets in his living room, 5 white 20amp, and one not quite white 15 amp (hope he dosent notice....)...

**Dennis Alwon** · 08-01-2009, 03:51 PM

Where are you at in NC?

Orionguy · 08-01-2009, 03:54 PM

I actually used to live in Chapel Hill but now i'm by Asheboro, the commute into Raleigh is a killer, gotta go where the work is though...

lectro88 · 08-01-2009, 03:57 PM

There are several contributing factors to this problem. You mentioned craigslist - the State Board has been policing craigslist for non-licensed hacks. These numbnuts are responding in a negative, hateful way, not realizing that it's the State Board, not contractors, responding. The State's hands are tied on some of these issues; they can't get their hands on the people on craigslist because it's an anonymous e-mail. In Charlotte, code enforcement used to enforce one card-holding journeyman per 5 workers. Somehow or other, through the politics and contractors, they've had to stop doing this because of lack of pay and man-power. And as you've said, our state exam is exceptionally tough. Most wrench turners want to become licensed (THIS IS MY OPINION), but with working a full-time job, if you have a family, the amount of study required to actually pass the exam, after a couple of tries, most guys give up. You have to want, and I mean really want, a state license. Another problem here now, there are so many small contractors doing electrical work, it's almost like trying to get into the landscaping business - there are so many (or were before the bottom fell out of the economy). Truth be known, most guys that do get their license eventually leave their employer, and who wouldn't, to do their thing, and one guy, a truck or van, and a ladder, and an insurance policy can work a lot cheaper than an established company with large overhead. I have to admit that at the end of the day, I don't know what the solution is either.

Lighting Retro · 08-01-2009, 04:02 PM

Outside of Unions, there is very little organized training for electricians. You can work for 10 years as an electrician, but if you only do the same things over and over again, you can actually be very unqualified to do the simple jobs some of us take for granted. You might be an underground wizard but can't hook up switchgear. You might be able to wire panels, but not be able to troubleshoot worth a darn.

Be nice to see more organized training and testing nationwide actually. And for those who struggle with the written word, there should be a verbal option. Some of our best electricians seem to have missed spelling class for their whole lives, but it has nothing to do with their skill and should not prevent licensing.

But $8 an hour? That's pretty ridiculous. If you need entertainment, just open up Craig's List once in awhile!

Orionguy · 08-01-2009, 04:16 PM

Amen lectro88, although you misinterpreted me a little, the state electrical contractors exam here is 100 questions 6 hours 3.6 minutes a question, a CT journeyman exam (mandated for all non-apprentices to work for an electrical contractor) is 70 questions 3 hours 2.6 minutes per questions, and the questions are the same with the exception of the 3 or 4 high voltage questions (EC's in CT have to have a special license over 2400? volts). Making the journeyman exam in CT harder. If you want to be an EC in CT you have to take a similar test as there journeyman exam but with 80 questions and a 20 question buisness exam with only 1.5 extra I believe (its been a while so dont quote me on that). I took both the CT journeyman and NC electrical exams thats why I say that. If theres a CT Master Electrician in here feel free to correct me on the license specifics.
If your familiar with the code and have been in the trade for longer than 4 years you should be able to breeze through the test. I came to NC had alot on my plate and with no time to study and passed the exam with a 89/100. Anyone who feeds you that is false, one weekend of code lookover or one saturday continuing ed course is all it takes.

brian john · 08-01-2009, 04:18 PM

I never completed an apprenticeship and I'll go head to head with any electricians out there. I feel confident in my knowledge and skills. With no formal apprenticeship.

Apprenticeship prepares you for work, many forget 90% of what they are taught in an apprentice, if not used on a daily basis. OJT, what you use regularly will stick with you.