What do you guys think??? Licensing - Page 4 - Electrician Talk - Professional Electrical Contractors Forum

InPhase277 · 08-01-2009, 08:48 PM

The problem with electrical work is that, for some reason, it is considered so easy to do that every idiot gives it a shot. I mean, you can't frame a building but in a few ways, but you can unfold coat hangers and chainlink fence to get the wire you need. I have heard statements both in person and in the DIY boards like "What's the big deal? It works. It was easy to get that wire in there, don't know why electricians charge so much", just the other day, on DIYchatroom, some dolt wrote this:

Quote:

Now don't take offense because there are some very good electricians but I've met a lot that weren't, it's a paint by numbers trade because the circuits in a house or even commercial building is about as ABC as it gets, as far as circuit analysis goes A/C circuits in a home or building is 3rd grade stuff. I'm sick of the insecure condescending remarks from electricians who live in glass houses. An electricians training barely goes past ohms law yet anyone trying to do anything in their own home needs to hire an electrician. I've rewired ten homes and all passed inspections, taken several electronic classes that involved complicated circuit analysis with pretty involved math yet I should feel helpless to hire an electrician who runs through his paint by numbers check list.

Asshat.

Orionguy · 08-01-2009, 08:54 PM

Have him look at a set of prints from a multi million dollar office building, school or hospital or for that matter something design build and see how fast he changes his tune.....
"paint by numbers"....priceless

Shado · 08-04-2009, 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MDShunk

Licensing solves nothing and DOES NOT improve the overall quality of the work.

I agree with this somewhat.... As I am an example.
We test and license here in Colorado. I worked for over 20 years in the trade before getting licensed. The license only meant I could command more $$$, which before getting married I didn't worry about. The quality of my work did not change once licensed. Craftsmanship is up to the person doing the work, with or without a license.
As far as solves nothing, I disagree. Testing and licensing forced me to learn more of the trade just to pass the test. Therefore increasing my qualifications., and $$ potential.

You are a smart man, somewhere you posted that you do direct deposit as it helps weed out potential issues with employees. Licensing does the same thing. If your state had some sort of testing/licensing program, you know it would at least give you comfort knowing that your potential employee had a set of minimum qualifications, to be capable of doing work under your name right from the start.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MDShunk

In fact, I can make a really good case that it makes things worse. The trend has been clear since tradecraft licensing began. The most famous report on that is called the Carrol-Gaston report, where it says, "The trend has been clear for decades that states with the most rigorous licensing laws for electricians, dentists, and optometrists have the greatest incidence of accidental electrocutions, poor dental hygiene, and blindness."

This I find hard to accept...

Boneshaker · 08-04-2009, 06:08 PM

Shado, I agree with you 100%. Having a license does not automatically make you a qualified electrician however it is a means to an end. It certainly helps keep the wages up and shows you have a base knowledge of the NEC and or can read and interpret the NEC if the need arises.
I feel the best argument for licensing is the fact no one can come up with a valid argument against it. I would like to hear if anyone can come up with a valid argument against it.

brian john · 08-04-2009, 06:36 PM

Licensing is MANDATORY in Washington DC and all the surrounding suburbs. I was told that less than 25% of all union electricians are licensed?

Laws are no good if no one is going to enforce them.

And I have said this before I had a journeymen's license at 20 and masters at 22, I had a long way to go before I was a full electrician.

brian john · 08-04-2009, 06:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by InPhase277

:

Asshat.

Have not heard that term in years

NolaTigaBait · 08-04-2009, 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brian john

Licensing is MANDATORY in Washington DC and all the surrounding suburbs. I was told that less than 25% of all union electricians are licensed?

Laws are no good if no one is going to enforce them.

And I have said this before I had a journeymen's license at 20 and masters at 22, I had a long way to go before I was a full electrician.

Haha, seems like we get our licenses before we actually know what the hell we are doing. I think my knowledge of the trade had doubled since I got my license. can thank the guys on this site for that.

Boneshaker · 08-04-2009, 06:55 PM

[quote=brian john;106369]Licensing is MANDATORY in Washington DC and all the surrounding suburbs. I was told that less than 25% of all union electricians are licensed?

Brian John, I am a member of local union 567 in Lewiston Maine and we require everyone to have a license. If you have a journeyman or masters license you get paid as such, if not you must carry a helpers license and you get paid as an apprentice. When you start digging into a mans pocket and taking money out of his wages it sure does motivate him to get that license.

brian john · 08-04-2009, 10:05 PM

[quote=Boneshaker;106374]

Quote:

Originally Posted by brian john

Licensing is MANDATORY in Washington DC and all the surrounding suburbs. I was told that less than 25% of all union electricians are licensed?

Brian John, I am a member of local union 567 in Lewiston Maine and we require everyone to have a license. If you have a journeyman or masters license you get paid as such, if not you must carry a helpers license and you get paid as an apprentice. When you start digging into a mans pocket and taking money out of his wages it sure does motivate him to get that license.

It use to be that way here than then there was a lawsuit (I am told) by a member that passed through the apprenticeship program but could not pass the J-mens test. His suit was how could he make it through an approved apprenticeship and flunk the J-mens test. They waved the requirement and here we are.

ALL SECOND HAND HERE SAY.

brian john · 08-04-2009, 10:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NolaTigaBait

Haha, seems like we get our licenses before we actually know what the hell we are doing. I think my knowledge of the trade had doubled since I got my license. can thank the guys on this site for that.

I think a journeymen's license should be a license to learn. It says you have achieved a certain level but as I found out all those years ago it was just a starting point.

BuzzKill · 08-04-2009, 10:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MDShunk

I try real hard not to feel anything about anything. Thoughts and decisions derived from feelings are often unsound.

Awesome philosophy.

Lone Crapshooter · 08-04-2009, 10:49 PM

Licensing without a continuning education requirenent (NEC and local codes) is just a waste of time money and paper. Any licensed occupation worth it's salt requires some form of continuing education. In my opinion the continuing requirement for licensing renewal would do more to weed out the riff raff than anything else.
LC

Orionguy · 08-05-2009, 08:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lone Crapshooter

Licensing without a continuning education requirenent (NEC and local codes) is just a waste of time money and paper. Any licensed occupation worth it's salt requires some form of continuing education. In my opinion the continuing requirement for licensing renewal would do more to weed out the riff raff than anything else.
LC

Completely agree,
I once had a really skilled foreman I learned from as an apprentice say 2 things i'll never forget "I'm not here to make friends, this aint the YMCA". love that one

(when another apprentice asked him why he was so strict, and not really a people person), and the most important "You'll always learn something new at least once a week until you retire because if you know all there is about electrical you need to pursue a new trade."

A license is like a high-school diploma, or crossing the bridge to become a boyscout. If you pulled the mandate for high-school, no truancy laws, and a diploma was only issued in states that felt it a need to require it, how much further do you think our education would decline. Although, as Brian John said, its a start point, and should present you the question, where to now? Something in paper that helps the owner or HR of a company track time in the trade, and at least know he has an initial 4 years and has made that effort for advancement.

Now, if a license is inactive, they cant do electrical work, you can find that out, but if a guy was laid off or working at walmart for 4 or 5 years and put that time on some "electrical company" that "doesnt exist anymore" or "business closed" on his resume, in states without licensing, he may be full of it, he may not, who knows, its hard maybe impossible at times to track.

I agree it doent help quality or production in any way. I worked with an apprentice once whos work scared the crap out of me, hot/ warm wirenuts, loose lugs, it was like pulling jenga blocks who knows when its all gonna crumble, it took him 7 times taking the test to pass, even though hes a journeyman now and has been for 5 years now, has that magically changed... nope.

People will only be as excellent as the journey they take to achieve their goal.

brian john · 08-05-2009, 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lone Crapshooter

Licensing without a continuning education requirenent (NEC and local codes) is just a waste of time money and paper. Any licensed occupation worth it's salt requires some form of continuing education. In my opinion the continuing requirement for licensing renewal would do more to weed out the riff raff than anything else.
LC

What? You think this is about having knowledgeable tradesmen? It is about generating cash for the local jurisdiction.

njspark83 · 09-01-2009, 12:32 PM

I disagree. In NJ i meet more people who have failed The electrical contractors exam than passed. The ability to get one's license means they know the code and the theory, These are your foremans. The men who make sure you pass your inspections. One's ability to do the mechanics of the trade will fall in place if they care about their career.

njspark83 · 09-01-2009, 12:57 PM

I went through the nj apprentice program. I must say, if it wasn't for that education I wouldn't have my license at 25 yrs old. Those who claim you are just as smart as those with professional training I find that to be very arrogant of you.

miller_elex · 09-01-2009, 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by njspark83

Those who claim you are just as smart as those with professional training I find that to be very arrogant of you.

I may disagree with Brian John on many things, but he is no doubt not arrogant.

The reason Brian John could go head-to-head with the best-of-the-best, even the boneheads working full-time down at the training center, is because the man is down right obsessed with the trade. He eats, sleeps, breathes, and shlts electrons, nuts, and bolts. Nothing against Brian John either when I compare him to the full-time instructors at the training center, some of those teachers are just looking to ride the gravy train down easy street. Honestly though, I couldn't teach a class all day, then nights and weekends too, I'd rather meet the business end of a firing squad than deal with the punk kids and sassy wiremen.