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Old 01-04-2015, 12:30 PM   #21
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I'm an electrician in America which is a rather isolated existence compared to the Euro electrical scene Martin.

Perhaps you blokes would be kind enough to take this opportunity to opine on your methods? For instance ring circuits>>



Why run a circuit this way would be my first Q.....?

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Right, bloody well right...

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Old 01-04-2015, 01:05 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by FlyingSparks View Post
I was always fascinated by the ring circuits. 2.5mm wire (13awg-ish) on a 32a OCPD, that's a lot different haha
2.5mm2 is a bit larger than 14 gauge which is 2.08mm2 to be exact.






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Originally Posted by chicken steve View Post
I'm an electrician in America which is a rather isolated existence compared to the Euro electrical scene Martin.

Perhaps you blokes would be kind enough to take this opportunity to opine on your methods? For instance ring circuits>>



Why run a circuit this way would be my first Q.....?

~CS~
Ill take a stab. Its said to save on copper. 2.5mm2 is rated at 16 to 20amps in wall. So when a ring is formed any socket will allow for power in both directions. Thus a 32 amp breaker may be used without a fire hazard. Also, since 7,600 watts of power are available on any socket circuit it is impossible to trip a breaker in any given room. Something like 5 space heaters would need to be plugged in.

Generally one ring circuit per floor on a small home. Lighting is 6 or 10amp kept separate from the ring. Kitchens get another circuit as well as the cooker, washer, ect. In theory you could place the laundry circuit on the main floor ring... but good design prevents that.

The plugs themselves are rated 13amps max and fused because a 32 amp breaker gives a lot more power than a 10 16 or 20amp breaker that is typical for most European lateral circuits (like those found on Schucko)



The new regs now want RCD as well.


Hopefully a UK sparky can confirm this.
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Old 01-04-2015, 04:46 PM   #23
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Thank you Mr Meadow

There is a certain beauty to how this is engineered. Less copper, more umph, point of use protection, as well as the (thankfully non digital) RCD

But it begs the Q, what if a ring breaks? Or device craps out to where the ring breaks?

~CS~
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Old 01-04-2015, 05:22 PM   #24
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I believe all the plugs are individually fused also to the appropriate load of the appliance/ device. That right there provides more protection than an afci breaker or tcfi plug.

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Old 01-04-2015, 05:26 PM   #25
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Can someone give me a rundown on how homes are wired in the UK? It seems to me that all recessed lights and fixtures are cut into the drywall on the finish. Most all of the high end electrical fixtures from UK manufacturers do not have a "rough in housing".

Pictures would be great.
why don't you just have a uk sparky do it right ?
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Old 01-05-2015, 12:17 PM   #26
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Ring circuits were meant to save copper after the war. They were not intended for long term use, but sadly are still used today.
There was talk when our 17th edition regulations were being drafted, that ring circuits would be phased out, unfortunately they weren't.
Ring circuits IMO are dangerous, they have been open to abuse by DIYers and idiots who don't understand them. Often someone will add additional sockets and in doing so, break the ring. When this happens, the sockets will still work, but you then have two separate radials each with a cable only capable of carrying 20A, but protected by a 30/32A device. You are also allowed spurs off a ring circuit and the rule of one socket only on a spur also gets abused.
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Old 01-05-2015, 06:40 PM   #27
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Thanks for the info guys. It seems that most sconces just screw to the wall and have little room for wiring behind them and come with a terminal block. Do they not use boxes in the UK? Most of the fixtures specd at the start of the job were UK but I found US equivalents. One example would be the recessed lights, all of the ones they had specd looked like old work style and I couldn't even find new construction style on the manufacturers website. Are all lights cut in after the walls are covered?
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Old 01-06-2015, 07:51 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by chicken steve View Post
Thank you Mr Meadow

There is a certain beauty to how this is engineered. Less copper, more umph, point of use protection, as well as the (thankfully non digital) RCD

But it begs the Q, what if a ring breaks? Or device craps out to where the ring breaks?

~CS~
My understanding is that if the rink breakers a 2.5mm2 runs up to 32 amps with no protection. Also, I can only imagine the magnetic fields from a ring with a broken live or neutral.

Anyway, I think you will like this:

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...BarY1zlQm3M-Dw




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Originally Posted by webelec View Post
Ring circuits were meant to save copper after the war. They were not intended for long term use, but sadly are still used today.
There was talk when our 17th edition regulations were being drafted, that ring circuits would be phased out, unfortunately they weren't.
Ring circuits IMO are dangerous, they have been open to abuse by DIYers and idiots who don't understand them. Often someone will add additional sockets and in doing so, break the ring. When this happens, the sockets will still work, but you then have two separate radials each with a cable only capable of carrying 20A, but protected by a 30/32A device. You are also allowed spurs off a ring circuit and the rule of one socket only on a spur also gets abused.

I agree they are a bad idea without any type of broken conductor protection. Ive heard from UK forums older sparkies would just strip off the insulation in a ring and not break the actual conductor.

IF it makes you feel better TN-C was allowed up to stoves and dryers supposedly to conserve copper during the war. TN-C was allowed until the 1996 codes with it going on until 2004 in some areas.

Out of curiosity, why is a spur considered ok? 2 outlets would equal 26 amps, unless the spur must be 4mm2?

Last edited by meadow; 01-06-2015 at 07:54 AM.
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Old 01-06-2015, 07:59 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by Shockdoc View Post
I believe all the plugs are individually fused also to the appropriate load of the appliance/ device. That right there provides more protection than an afci breaker or tcfi plug.

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Your are so right. I never put the two together but a 1amp fuse will protect a lamp cord better than a AFCI.
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Old 01-06-2015, 09:03 AM   #30
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Your are so right. I never put the two together but a 1amp fuse will protect a lamp cord better than a AFCI.
Definitely. Think about the fuse protection that's required for all Christmas and other similar decorative lighting. Now imagine if every lamp cord besides Christmas lights required fuse protection? I think you would see a dramatic reduction in fires caused by improper use of lamp cord if they had local fuse protection.
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Old 01-06-2015, 10:08 AM   #31
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Definitely. Think about the fuse protection that's required for all Christmas and other similar decorative lighting. Now imagine if every lamp cord besides Christmas lights required fuse protection? I think you would see a dramatic reduction in fires caused by improper use of lamp cord if they had local fuse protection.
I think that's one of the nest analogies along with one of the best recommendations I have ever heard on ET


Any for your pleasure, another AFCI hissy fit:

http://www.diychatroom.com/f18/new-c...ing-tv-224065/
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Old 06-06-2015, 06:42 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by JBrzoz00 View Post
Can someone give me a rundown on how homes are wired in the UK? It seems to me that all recessed lights and fixtures are cut into the drywall on the finish. Most all of the high end electrical fixtures from UK manufacturers do not have a "rough in housing".

Pictures would be great.

You would be wise to visit UK Electrical websites to learn as much as you can about the tremendous difference between USA & UK house wiring. Also read all of the helpful quotes sent in by people attempting to assist you. I served my apprenticeship in the UK then worked there and in the USA as both an electrician and in later years as an estimator in both countries. You really need to do your homework before bidding for UK projects. Hope this helps. HGC
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Old 06-13-2015, 11:37 AM   #33
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You would be wise to visit UK Electrical websites to learn as much as you can about the tremendous difference between USA & UK house wiring. Also read all of the helpful quotes sent in by people attempting to assist you. I served my apprenticeship in the UK then worked there and in the USA as both an electrician and in later years as an estimator in both countries. You really need to do your homework before bidding for UK projects. Hope this helps. HGC
Once you see the two systems side by side you tend to have an awakening.

But I fully agree, the difference is tremendous, especially in testing.
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Old 06-14-2015, 01:00 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by JBrzoz00 View Post
Can someone give me a rundown on how homes are wired in the UK? It seems to me that all recessed lights and fixtures are cut into the drywall on the finish. Most all of the high end electrical fixtures from UK manufacturers do not have a "rough in housing".

Pictures would be great.
No other way to put it but if you don't know the area...don't bid the job.
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Old 07-29-2015, 09:47 PM   #35
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What is puzzling me is why a US electrician has been asked to work to BS7671?
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Old 08-03-2015, 11:39 PM   #36
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Testing is a legal requirement for certification on completion. Most US electricians will fall flat on their face with that.

Hands up anyone that can carry out
Loop impedance testing
RCD (GFCI) threshold and impulse testing
IR testing

The old “we work to code so it’s safe” just won’t wash under BS7671. Documented evidence is required.
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Old 08-04-2015, 07:18 AM   #37
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What is puzzling me is why a US electrician has been asked to work to BS7671?

Cool story


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Old 08-04-2015, 08:05 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by Tony S View Post
Testing is a legal requirement for certification on completion. Most US electricians will fall flat on their face with that.

Hands up anyone that can carry out
Loop impedance testing
RCD (GFCI) threshold and impulse testing
IR testing

The old “we work to code so it’s safe” just won’t wash under BS7671. Documented evidence is required.
I'm in the process of contracting a 3 unit rewire for a Brittish couple this fall

Our first meeting was all about our 'methods' , thankfully i've been somewhat enlightened on line to Brittish Standards to have some clue and kept up with him

Oh and, he's also one of 'God's special children'.....an engineer!

Methinks he's taken a shine to me.....this should be interesting ......

~CS~
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Old 08-06-2015, 02:53 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony S View Post
Testing is a legal requirement for certification on completion. Most US electricians will fall flat on their face with that.

Hands up anyone that can carry out
Loop impedance testing
RCD (GFCI) threshold and impulse testing
IR testing

The old “we work to code so it’s safe” just won’t wash under BS7671. Documented evidence is required.

Im learning how to do those, but well worth it imo.
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Old 08-06-2015, 03:23 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by chicken steve View Post
I'm in the process of contracting a 3 unit rewire for a Brittish couple this fall

Our first meeting was all about our 'methods' , thankfully i've been somewhat enlightened on line to Brittish Standards to have some clue and kept up with him

Oh and, he's also one of 'God's special children'.....an engineer!

Methinks he's taken a shine to me.....this should be interesting ......

~CS~

Time to buy one of these


http://www.fluke.com/fluke/m3en/inst....htm?pid=72323
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