retired 7373

Not trying to be insulting to anyone just a new topic to talk about.

retired 7373

organizing

william1978

I don't think its just the IBEW its the whole trade in general because it seems like the skill level has drop on both sides of the fence.

Peter D

I don't buy this bit about the skill level of the trade dropping. Our trade is more complex than it's ever been, with more code rules than ever and more technology to deal with. Complex buildings, from a custom house to a skyscraper, are still being built just fine.

Furthermore, let's not forget that it does not take a great deal of education and skills to be an electrician. No higher education, degree or certification is required. Sure, many states require apprentices, where an apprenticeship is even required, to attend school, and require licensed electricians to attend CEU's. But beyond that, having mechanical skills and common sense is all that is needed to be an electrician. To use the old saying, 'its not rocket science.'

Minuteman

A few thoughts.

I coach my grandson's ball team. The less experienced kids seem to pick up what the better kids are doing. When we play against the very good teams, our playing ability seems to get better.

Also, Once upon a time, organizing was the battle cry of the Hall, as the number of merit out weighted the number of collective. When the numbers where in the favor of the collective, then the social club mentality emerged. All the work became the IBEW work (in their mind) and the us/them battle began.

I have seen skilled and less than skilled in both sectors. However, cream rises to the top.

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"The Few, the Proud, the Infidel."
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william1978

I agree, but on most of these large jobs you have some very good electricians and rest don't care or just don't get it. Alot of the highrise condos going up in town are being roughed and trimed out by some idoits. I guess what I'm trying to say is that there isn't enough well rounded electrician's out there that can make it happen and don't need to be baby sitted.

Peter D

That's how it's always been though. All you need are a few smart guys to tell the "idiots" what to do. It's just assembly work after all.

william1978

That right there pretty sums it up. The cream still have jobs right now.

william1978

Thats right for sure.

Peter D

To borrow something that Bob Badger has said in the past, we are not in a Nobel prize winning trade. It's just electrical work.

drsparky

I like the inflow of ideas of the organized folks. Most are dammed good electricians. Many do not have experience in the heavy industrial environment, but ether did I 10 years ago. What was our core business is getting smaller every year as manufacturing moves overseas. If the IBEW is to survive we must move more into the commercial residential area. The most experience folks in that area are the non-union electricians. I need to learn from them.

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oldman

one thing that has occurred is the necessity of the creation of creating labor saving tools and materials...a part of this is due to the increase in wages, and the decrease in productivity, as a whole...

there are too many wasted man hours on projects in general...this simply raises the cost to the customer, or lowers the profit of the contractor...neither is really good...

i've seen jobs where 5 qualified guys would suffice, but 2 qualified and 6 not-so-qualified were all that was available...

add to that the lack of pride in our trades....and well, hopefully it will all turn back around before I retire...

brian john

Good electricians are out there but they become fire alarm men, control guys, trouble shooters, and on and on. Most basic electrical work can be done by anybody with a leader directing them. The majority of work on a large project is assembly line work. Even the most expierenced assembly line electricians do not need to know anything about electricity. drill this, cut that, hang it here, run it there.

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manchestersparky

Thank You Brian, I take that as a compliment
Before I went to "the dark side" all I pretty much did for the last few years was Fire alarms and security in commercial projects
Well that and "guide" the foremen that ran the electrical side of the project.

nick

Well Brian thats a big misconception your really feel that a construction electrician is not electrically schooled and that they are assemblers ?

And that a testing electrician is the only electricians that know anything about electrical work and a fire alarm tech is steps ahead of us as far as there ability to install a fire alarm circuit .

You guys have got to come out to our job sites and ill take you on a tour kinda show you what we need to know its a little bit more then monkey work at the assembly line .
Ive kinda heard this before on this forum and kinda laughed a little but thers different electricians in this big world not just the ones you see each day lets give them some respect when you say bigg jobs you hit a sore spot there Brian . Take care we know you mean well but kinda hit home ther .

steelersman

I would say that control guys are a little more skilled than fire alarm guys simply because I don't think most fire alarm guys could jump right in and do controls unless they've done that before, whereas control guys could jump right in and do fire alarm stuff as it's nothing more than basic controls.

nick

Well any job can be mastered if one really wants to do that job . Someone told me that once the most high tech control work is a basic switch on or off .
It maybe temp- speed- position -rotate - time - delayed controlled but its simply ON or OFF done by the old relay or today a PC/LOGIC and programing I/O .
We all have our tech spots in this trade and each of us give a project our touch in our scope but thers lots of things done that are a skill and what iam saying is experience on doing new construction from the ground to the final finished project. What is skill ? How or why do we feel any trade is more skilled then the other ?
How is the union going lower now in there skill ?
Did you know that there is a shortage of new electrical workers and it s coming up in our future there is less looking to do electrical work its a fact !

Heres what i say most electricians after school just work in the trade day to day . They dont read about or study electrical or want to learn any further than getting and passing there JR card STOP .

If you want to suceed in this world one must keep up with new ways study go to classes learn on you own. Read the code book each year when we have a book change read about new electrical inovative stuff . keep up with the times ! No one does that ever we just go by each day thinking were smarter ? BE SAFE

steelersman

The boss at the first company I worked for wiring houses about 14 years ago once made the comment in the shop at the end of the day that "you guys aren't elcetricians, you're electrical installers". I don't think he was saying it to be demeaning, but just in jest, but it stuck with me nonetheless. I took it to mean that because none of the guys were actually licensed they were just basically installers, which when I thought about it I agreed.

And controls is basically just a bunch of on off switches, or at least the binary and digital points are. Analog points aren't though. Somehow though, at least for me, when I was new to controls and I was told the same thing by the guy I was working with, it doesn't make it any easier to learn by simply thinking about it as a switch. There is much more to it than that.

I never had experience working with relays before doing controls. I had learned about them in school, but that didn't give me a firm understanding of how they worked. Hell, we've got guys in our company right now who have been doing here longer than me, who don't have a firm understanding about how half of this stuff works!

I think anyone can learn anything. It's just a matter of do they actually have a desire to learn it or understand it. Some guys just don't care to know how stuff works. I've always had to know how or why I'm doing what I'm doing. It's never been enough for me to simply be able to install it properly. I have to know why or how it is working. So I guess I've always had the desire to learn this stuff.

brian john

Nick I spend my time dealing with issues on construction sites and !))% I stand by my statement.

{quote]
And that a testing electrician is the only electricians that know anything about electrical work and a fire alarm tech is steps ahead of us as far as there ability to install a fire alarm circuit .[/quote]
I never mentioned testers you did.

Sorry that you feel slighted BUT facts are facts as I said MOST, not all, not you,. BUT MOST and I spend tons of time bailing out construction electtricians, talking to the same and when 99 of of a 100 do not know what kva is or can calculate the primary and secodary amperage of transformers with factory furnished wallet size kva spread sheet. I question their ability.

There is nothing wrong with not knowing anything about electricity if our job only involves assembly line work. Most of these guys are good at what they do and qualify as electricians by their job, but are not fully knowledgable in the trade.

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nick

Well your old boss is typical of what the real world thinks . Ive always needed to know also the whole picture on how things work in fact i enjoy controls and electronics as a past time kinda .

I work as a electrician day job many many years and run a small bussiness on my own i sell electricians tools which i design & manufacture and sell to electrical contractors . Steelerman keep up the way you are thinking its good to be educated and know how things work inside and out thats what makes the differance between a electrician and a good electrician . Be SAFE