miller_elex

I am proud to be an A-HOLE.

I'm an American too. A Proud American A-Hole!

Takes one to know one, B.John.

I could not give two sh1ts for someone who thinks the Ibew should fall by the wayside.

The most common argument I hear is, 'let the market decide what you are worth,' I've seen the market at work in the middle-east. The market decided brown people who are semi-skilled and work seventy hours a week in 120degree heat are worth about two dollars a day.

If fearing the markets true nature makes me an A-HOLE, then so be it. But at the least, I am still a middle-class A-HOLE.

jammerx37

Think "Rain Man"

wildleg

700 posts later and this thread is still sucking

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Chuck Norris sleeps with a night light. Not because Chuck Norris is afraid of the dark, but the dark is afraid of Chuck Norris.

Black4Truck

It provides real drama and keeps the place from being boring..

LawnGuyLandSparky

That's because it is only open shop electricians posting the questions and problems... largely. I mean, c'mon... GFCI problems? So many of them don't have a clue. Between this and Mike Holt's forum, 99 & 44/100% of the "questions" are from open shop electricians or one-man-band contractors in over their heads due to lack of proper training.

Bob Badger

Now you are just spitting out BS, we get plenty of questions from union guys about the most basic wiring questions.

Try posting some facts that you did not overhear at the hall.

brian john

LGLS

I'd bet these guys you defend can't even answer these basic questions, what does that say about them?

Or maybe they won't answer these questions for fear of giving away the secretes of electricity. What does that say about them.

Once again you are losing and bouncing off the wall.

I realize Miller is only an apprentice but there should be some basic knowledge he has picked up in the year/year's he has been in the program.

I have posted this before but I thought I would restate this.

Personally I feel working in the union is best for electricians for a variety of reason, generally higher pay, consistent benefits that transfer from company to company.

The negatives are IMO, the pay issue with slackers (general term for men that may not be able to hold a job open shop) making the same as the majority of men that are productive, the union lawyers that are always on big jobs stirring up crap about OFTEN minimal issues. The holier than though attitude that is generally evident (in my experience) in those with the least ability/knowledge.

There are good men on both sides of the fence and what gets me is the narrow minded approach some union men take DOES ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to improve the union stance in trying to sway open shop men.

Talk about the benefits, be positive and stuff the narrow minded bigoted attitude in the trash.

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I void warranty's

SGC622

both sides have done a good job at fighting their points its just that when the black sheep from both sides get on here and post they keep saying some idiotic things.

boulengerina

I agree. Is it unfair to say, that to a great extent, the employer and the employee share the same interests? They are both trying to make money, and they are both counting on work. What other interests are there?

I do not believe that ALL contractors want to screw their men out of money or hours or good working conditions. There are signatory (Union) contractors right here in NC that go above and beyond the contract, giving extra (paid) time for lunch, and not hiring ANYONE at the crappy little CW-0 classification (no insurance for 6 months, and minimal pay), as they believe that EVERYONE should have health insurance. While I recognize that all contractors are not like this, there are still quite a few good ones.

We do, in fact, share the same interests. If you disagree, I would like to know why. You count on the next job, right? So does the contractor. You are trying to make money. So is the contractor. You want qualified men on the job (I should hope). So does the contractor.

Maybe if you picture yourself as a sub-contractor selling your services to a contractor, it will help.

boulengerina

So what you are saying is that nepotism is wrong. Good. For a minute there, it sounded like you just don't like it in Unions, but its ok everywhere else!

SGC622

This forum has triggered me to want to learn alot more about the differenet aspects of the trade, and the few days i've been on here posting. I've went to alot of different people finding out the answers to all these good and valid points both non union and union guys are saying.
First off i'll say to each his own, if you have the mentality that your going to change everyones mind with one simple post, your mistaken everyone will always find a weakness or flaw in both sides, personally in this economy my union moral has waivered but only because i thought i had these restrictions on me on where i could work. That was only until recently when i found that you can do anything you want in the union, if you want to work non-union go to your BA im sure you'll be able to work something out, after all they are here for US.
In good times i have heard that there are some guys(the one that sit on the books in bad times) that will say what they want to get laid off cause they know they will go out the next day (bad mentality i agree.) There are some guys that use their local union (my local for example because we cover our workers healthcare indefinitely when they get laid off) as long as they dont roll the book 3 times. for their health insurance and take 2 week calls when necessary so they dont roll the book and lose the healthcare, they are some of the scumbags that should get kicked out.
One of the most awesome things that i have experience as an apprentice for one is the opportunity to be able to go up to your foreman or Journeyman and ask him about what you learned the night before in school and they would take time out of the day to teach you or show you how its done in real life, of course as long as it was relevant or simple. Hell i had one foreman upon hearing a question i asked took all the apprentices after break and explained to us my question, it doesnt stop there, i've had the owner of my shop do the same thing. Having worked non union i have NEVER seen that in my time working for them, not saying it doesnt happen but in my personal experience it hasnt.
Lastly and i hate to rant sorry to everyone. If we did not have rules and such in place at the work place about Safety, Equality, and Fairness that at some point the union fought for, for everyone in this forum. Would you still say let a shop owner do what it wants to do cause i have the freedom to quit and find a better shop? would there be a better shop if no one fought for our rights? If no union stood up for and fought for what we have now, we could have been making the decision when deciding on where to work. (ok this shop sucks im quiting 14hr days with no break or lunch blows, im going to go apply over here they have 12 hr days and have a break during the day.)
Its easy for the non union guys to say hey let the owner be i'll find someone better, because the Rights on the jobsite today are acceptable and reasonable because of what the union has fought for in the past, im sure if you were working Pre-union you would be singing a different tune. which everyone back then was, i believe everyone was on the union side back then because the union started making jobsites fair, nowadays the union is kicked to the wayside because all the rights today are all commonplace for everyone. the union lost its uniqueness by fighting to equalize it for everyone. so you have a choice union or non union, just dont forget it before you bash the union where you got your Rights on the workplace.

Thomps

Well, speaking as a contractor (merit), I can tell you that I have never been able to afford to take a "us against them" mentaility when tackling labour issues.
The company's profitablity and well being is in my best interest, and the staff's best interest.
We aren't setting out to go hell bent for leather only to burn out due to poor dicisions and mis management. My long term interests are tied to the staff, as I feel that theirs are to mine (as long as they are employed here anyway).

Unfortunately, Millers post was just a pot stir. contractors & labour can have a working relationship without that kind of attitude.

boulengerina

A bit wordy, but well said. And if the Union goes away tomorrow, we WILL gradually slip back to the "pre-Union" period, as you put it. But the Union needs to wake up. We need to get back to the basics. A Union contract should not weigh two pounds on 8.5 X 11 paper! We need to supply the finest manpower, at a living wage, to our contractors. Ask any contractor that de-certifies... usually the biggest reason is the quality or attitude of manpower, coupled with the high wages and benefits. KEYWORD: COUPLED!

Brian John, I want your input on this.

We can keep our wages and benefits, so long as the quality and attitude of the manpower improves. Seldom does anyone de-certify just because of the money. It's always the money, plus the manpower.

I have said before in this post, many so-called Union men have entitlement issues, that the rest of us that just want to work cannot afford to have on the job. Here in NC, there is currently a large project, employing about 250 brothers. The job is coming out of the ground, and this is NC in the winter. YOU SHOULD HEAR THE BITCHIN'!!!!! It's too cold... It's too wet... I don't have a warm place to eat my lunch... It takes too long to get off the jobsite at the end of the shift.... C'MON!!!! Are we men or mice???? I feel like a babysitter sometimes. There are appx 3.5 MILLION Americans out of work, and these geniuses want to wobble the job! It really makes me want to puke. We are construction workers. Most of us have families and mortgages and cars and lives that cost MONEY, and a handful of the (sorry, I hate this term) RATTIEST bunch of ticket holders (mostly travelers) want to come to OUR JURISDICTION and complain!?!?!?!?!? WTF?

Bob Badger

You and others with that same attitude do so much more harm to the union than I ever will.

You seriously need to grow up and leave the Jr High school name calling in the past.

boulengerina

Jeez, Bob... I hate agreeing with you.

Bob Badger

Even a broken clock is right a couple of times a day.

RIVETER

I was wondering if there are open shop jobs where both sides work together. If so, how are they doing? Do they fight all day. Just asking. Not picking on you Bob, just thought I'd get a straight answer. It is scary to think that people are this anxious about each other. If I find a person at lunch choking on a BIG MAC, will I have to see if he is a card holder or not before I perform CPR?

vanvincent218

if he was able to buy fries and a large coke he was probably a union man

LawnGuyLandSparky

Nice post! Let's sum it up:

-Need to print contract on lightweight paper. Check.
-Need to easily weed out anyone not pulling their weight. How about "you're fired?"
-Need attitude adjustment. Whether a man is happy as a clam or full of piss & vinegar, what does it have to do with their work? If their attitude negatively affects production, isn't there already recourse?

-Need overall higher quality manpower. By this I take it to mean more productive. That said, there will never be a time when any business owner whose purpose is profiting from the difference between production output and price minus overhead who will forget that if only one variable of this equation increases that profits will go up. Providing of course that the price of this increase doesn't follow suit. Therefore, the drive and desire to squeeze more profit out of a worker will be a neverending tug-of-war between management and labor that no measure ever seems to satisfy either.

paul d.

LGLS, just curious; are you or have been an " organizer " ?