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Old 02-07-2010, 12:04 PM   #41
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What gives the government the right to dictate my health care? I am a free man that can make my own decisions. I have health insurance that they have decided is a "Cadillac" plan and they need to further tax it. Maybe if the Wal-Mart workers and the burger flippers out there had some ambition, I would not have to have more of my income "redistributed” to those lazy assholes. I grew up poor and worked my way up to middle class but they are taxing me back to the poorhouse.
Nothing is free in life, the more layers of people involve the higher the costs.

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Old 02-07-2010, 12:06 PM   #42
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All factual evidence, none of this "I have a friend" , or "I knew a guy", or "my mother's best friend across the border", spell out that our mortality rates in the U.S. are higher than Canada.

All the useless information by misinformed individuals on this forum does nothing to alleviate that fact.

Spend some time browsing the WHO's web site (and no not Pete Townsend's and Roger Daltrey's web site) and customize your own comparisons. Draw your own intelligent conclusions, if you dare, the site is extremely user friendly.

I suspect the majority who espouse no change in our defunct health care system will not be intellectually honest and do their own research.
What's your definition of "factual evidence"? What I related concerning my friend's ordeal is factual. The info I shared on other nation's healthcare plans was straight from Google. I am not opposed to health care insurance reform. I just do not see how the proposed reform bill was going to help anyone except those who were getting greased to jump on-board. It is filled with pay-offs, bribes and perks. The unions scream about the "cadillac tax" co guess what? They are exempted, along with Federal, state and local government workers. What a bunch of crap. There are several steps we can take to make health insurance more accessable to our population and several steps we can make to hold insurance companies accountable to their policy holders. And I don't buy that tort reform would amount to microscopic savings. Hold on to your hat Jay cause here's another personal observation story from me: My Doctor, a family practice guy, pays $54,000.00 a year in malpractice insurance premiums and he's never been involved in a malpractice suit. You don't think that cutting that number by 2/3 or 1/2 would make a significat difference in his operating costs?
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Old 02-07-2010, 12:23 PM   #43
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What's your definition of "factual evidence"? What I related concerning my friend's ordeal is factual. The info I shared on other nation's healthcare plans was straight from Google. I am not opposed to health care insurance reform. I just do not see how the proposed reform bill was going to help anyone except those who were getting greased to jump on-board. It is filled with pay-offs, bribes and perks. The unions scream about the "cadillac tax" co guess what? They are exempted, along with Federal, state and local government workers. What a bunch of crap. There are several steps we can take to make health insurance more accessable to our population and several steps we can make to hold insurance companies accountable to their policy holders. And I don't buy that tort reform would amount to microscopic savings. Hold on to your hat Jay cause here's another personal observation story from me: My Doctor, a family practice guy, pays $54,000.00 a year in malpractice insurance premiums and he's never been involved in a malpractice suit. You don't think that cutting that number by 2/3 or 1/2 would make a significat difference in his operating costs?
I think your's and my opinions on this matter may be closer to each other than you may think.
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Old 02-07-2010, 12:50 PM   #44
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Torts cost the entire healthcare industry less than 1/10 of 1%. Tort reform or lack thereof is not the reason why policies cost what they do.



There are - like a set of guidelines and a menu of healthcare coverage plans that all providers must offer and may price on their own. It is an industry the government needs to tightly regulate, like it did before Reagan when everyone had health insurance through their employer.

Guess I was bit off with the tort reform.But the regulations are desperately needed.I don't understand how people can sit here look you right in the face and say everything is fine no need to change or regulate anything.
I guess these are the same people who think that if you can't afford coverage then all well that's to bad you deserve what you get..
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Old 02-07-2010, 02:28 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by LawnGuyLandSparky
Torts cost the entire healthcare industry less than 1/10 of 1%. Tort reform or lack thereof is not the reason why policies cost what they do.
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Originally Posted by slickvic277 View Post
Guess I was bit off with the tort reform.
Not really.
In the interest of full disclosure LGLS *is* correct in the objective and demonstrable facts; which is as far as he took his statement.

The part that the others prefer to focus on is the ANECDOTAL "reports" about doctors ordering tests and such in a CYA measure.

Certainly some of that will happen (we do it too in EC work too)...
but it also isn't nearly as substantial as is claimed for either of us.

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I don't understand how people can sit here look you right in the face and say everything is fine no need to change or regulate anything.
I'd suspect the primary cause is that they have theirs.
Or really don't understand how much money is spent on their behalf that they will NEVER see in actual care or services
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Old 02-07-2010, 02:33 PM   #46
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It is very hard to quantify the cost of lawsuits on medical care. We spent a huge sum of money practicing defensive medicine. The cost of documentation and tests and preventive measures just to prove that you are meeting the standard of care is tremendous.
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Old 02-07-2010, 06:24 PM   #47
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It is very hard to quantify the cost of lawsuits on medical care. We spent a huge sum of money practicing defensive medicine. The cost of documentation and tests and preventive measures just to prove that you are meeting the standard of care is tremendous.
And the high insurance cost for doctors, I am on some medicine for high blood pressure. I do not have high blood pressure but I was put on the medicine as it is general practice. I was told if I had a heart attack and my wife wanted to sue the 1st question a lawyer would ask is after the heart attack did you put him on blood pressure medicine answer NO, pay up sucka.
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Old 02-07-2010, 07:26 PM   #48
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We need healthcare reform. We don't need a $1trillion porkfest.
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Old 02-07-2010, 09:09 PM   #49
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Yup, yu smoke for 30 yrs, the taxpayers of this nation do not owe you a new set of lungs, a new throat, or any thing else.
Why not? Smokers pay over 2.00 a pack, here in NY a oack is almost $10.00, in excise taxes passed "due to their burdeon on the healthcare system." If it's not illegal to engage in smoking, why isn't your insurer and the taxpayers obligated to get your new lungs, just as it's not illegal to drive and have an accident, or, if you have an accident and it IS your fault your insurer still has to pay for your damages and medical care.

Unless of course, you're willing to forgoe all excise taxes on tobacco...

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You drink for 40 yrs, the taxpayers do not owe you a new liver.
Why not? Drinkers paid additional excise taxes and so did the bars and every store which sells alcohol, why shouldn't those few who fall victim to the ill effects be entitled to something?

Unless of course you're willing to forgoe excise taxes and fees on all alcohol...

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You eat cheeseburgers from McD's everday for lunch, don't exercise properly, the taxpayers should not pay for quadruple by-passes, stents or new arteries.
So, in a nutshell... everyone should (responsibly) have medical insurance but only those who are perfectly healthy should ever get any benefit from it.

Geez, you're just brilliant.

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Why not? What does your plan say?

If you think you are covered, but fail to read and understand the policy you purchased, why the hell is that my problem?

But if, and if, coverage is provided in your package, then no, they should pay for your coverage. To many times, people blame insurers, when the fact is they never read their plan, or understood what it covers and what it does not.
Again, not my problem, nor is it the taxpayers.
It isn't your problem until it becomes your problem, and that is the problem. The fact is insurers have figured out ways to collect premiums until the *&it hits the fan and then figure out a way to drop the coverage. Often, the patient is too sick and the family too distraught to fight.
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Old 02-07-2010, 09:28 PM   #50
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Lawn Guy.

As someone who has been to the VA many,many,many times, You can have the medical system.

You surely know nothing about government health care. Just try to get care there. Wait for 3 months for an appointment, just to get a letter in the mail 2 weeks before, confirming your cancellation.

But you never cancelled. Wait another 3 months and the cycle begins again.

The only thing the VA is good for, is prescription drugs. They are cheaper.

Your idea of a health care plan is different than mine.
My health care plan for the nation is one of personal responsibilty first.
Your's is one of government responsibility first, and always will be.
Dorf,

My "plan" is not one of government responsibility first. My "plan" is that everybody, bar none, or I should say NOBODY should have to die or lose everything they've ever worked for because of a debilitating or long-term illness. I just think it's inhuman, and as a nation possessing the greatest wealth, where other nations of lesser wealth have accomplished it is a crying shame.

It just shows how collectively our priorities are skewwed from where I happen to believe they should be. My opinion, you needn't agree. I just can't comprehend how someone goes broke getting Chemotherapy while other piss away $18,000 on a handbag.

As far as the VA - my parents encouraged my brother to join the service. He didn't but one of the "enticements" I remember they said was "free healthcare for life!" (As in you'll never land a job with benefits no way no how...) The seed they planted was disingenuinious, that if you serve you'll get free medical was of course a lie as you now well know. But they depended on as many people believing that lie to achieve their end - higher enlistments... Bush the 1st said he'd fix it he didn't, Clinton said he'd fix it he didn't, Bush the 2nd said he'd fix it he didn't... you get the picture.

There is a VA hospital in my backyard, Northport - they call it the Golf Course, it gets high marks for the care they do give but of course, nobody hears about the care they don't give.

Now is this failing really one of personal responsibility? Should all those screwed by the VA and it's policies only blame themselves?

I don't think so.

And the VA suffers not from inability to render care, but the financial constraints of not being able to fulfill the promises made to the servicemen and women who need to utilize it. This is not the VA's fault - this is the fault of our Congressmen and Senators who seem to rather see a bridge built in Alaska to nowhere.
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Old 02-07-2010, 09:28 PM   #51
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We need healthcare reform. We don't need a $1trillion porkfest.
....yes sir I agree 100%!!!!!!

My family has been without insurance for about 8 years....can't afford it since my daughter has a pre existing birth defect. And with this economy.....it will be many more years probably....
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Old 02-07-2010, 09:32 PM   #52
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I don't think government ran health care is the answer(they would for sure fu** it up).

But the cost is outrageous.They need to cap what the lawyers sue for In malpractice suits.They need to limit the price of certain procedures(when I had an MRI for my shoulder the whole thing took 45 minutes and they charged my insurance 6 grand!)Allow people to buy insurance any were they want,get people out of emergency rooms who don't have emergencies,give companies and small business owners TAX BRAKES for offering health care to there employees,There should be mandated Health insurance for the largest companies like walmart,mcdonalds,places like that.

And in the spirit of "American free trade"let people shop for there prescriptions any were they like,imagine being able to go online and find the best price for your script.

I know this may come to a surprise to some,I'm really not for government ran H.C.
There has to be a whole lot of things that can be done before we allow the government to destroy H.C. and make things worse then what they already are.

I won't deny that some well off Canadians are going to the U.S for private treatment but lumping "our socialist system" as crap is overdone and is simply balony... AND Canadians still live longer than Americans - 1 year longer for males and 3 years longer for females - Actually Canada is ranked 8th highest in the world for life expectancy the U.S is ranked 50 ... you can keep your system lol. No doubt there are good elements, bad elements and outstanding elements in both...

I mean seriously - how many selective horror story posts can one post about facets of the U.S health care system lol - baloney.
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Old 02-07-2010, 09:36 PM   #53
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Damn dude, no one even remotely said that, what a spin.

I believe he saying as a responsible person we have to understand we may get cancer and should take steps to be prepared for that.
There are people all over the country that cannot earn enough to afford even the most basic plan, yet do not qualify for any social program. Are all these people destined to die, is it their fault?


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Old 02-07-2010, 09:39 PM   #54
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Prove this please.
http://washingtonindependent.com/555...lth-care-costs
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Old 02-07-2010, 09:42 PM   #55
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We need healthcare reform. We don't need a $1trillion porkfest.
Great...

So, let's hear your ideas!
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Old 02-07-2010, 09:44 PM   #56
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. This is not the VA's fault - this is the fault of our Congressmen and Senators .

And these are the same people you want to be in charge of managing all of the US Healthcare?

At least you learned something today.
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Old 02-07-2010, 09:47 PM   #57
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The Washington Independent?

Are you serious?

The Washington Independent?


Give me two or 3 credible articles. I can find at least a couple to prove this paper wrong.
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Old 02-07-2010, 09:51 PM   #58
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And these are the same people you want to be in charge of managing all of the US Healthcare?

At least you learned something today.
I don't want them in charge of it, I want them to set standards and regulating it. I want them to do to healthcare what they did to the airlines in the 50's, 60's and 70's when no planes crashed and very few were ever late or delayed.

Look what happened when they turned airport security over to private competition, we got $6.00 an hour "security guards" and lost the Twin Towers.

Yea, isn't pure unregulated unchecked capatilism just wonderful???
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Old 02-07-2010, 10:05 PM   #59
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There are people all over the country that cannot earn enough to afford even the most basic plan, yet do not qualify for any social program. Are all these people destined to die, is it their fault?
Yes, the fact is that it is their responsibility.

Last edited by EDC; 02-07-2010 at 11:01 PM.
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Old 02-07-2010, 10:05 PM   #60
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Great...
So, let's hear your ideas!

There IS a role for private health insurance companies.
There IS a role for a national backstop coverage system.
Mostly though there is a NEED to shift responsibility back to individuals.

Less of Government and Less of Private Insurance.
Two sides of the same nannyism coin.

What does that leave us with?
With the three basic categories of care:

1) The first category is the 80% that constitutes everyone’s day to day use of medical services which should be paid for out of pocket (by most of us) on a fee for service basis to the provider we choose.

And yes, people with a specific condition can expect to pay more for that
basic care than people who don't have that specific condition.

This largish number can be broken down by age and gender and medical specialty but however many subcategories might result what they all have in common is still too similar to warrant detailing those distinctions at this juncture.

There are very few of us who don’t have the same basic recurring sequence of annual professional visits. Some of these are twice a year and others perhaps only once every three years (eg: Dentist vs Optometrist). But whatever our particular pattern, it is indeed a pattern and therefore it can be planned and budgeted for.

This practical reality is the best argument against having insurance company involvement in these common transactions and private relationships with our doctors at all.

For those without that pattern we may need to foster creating facilities and staff that will serve them. And for the rest some protocols for transparent fee structures by these providers will need to be established and some regulation of standards of care along with specific expectations for examinations and clinical tests.

Whether our tastes or resources would send us to the health clinic at the University Medical School or allow us to be pampered by the posh Park Avenue private practice we remain the best arbiters of how much we should spend to get the care we need.



This self-direction and sense of personal responsibility warrants cultivation and should extend to those things we are willing to do (or not) to mitigate what degree of care and services we will have to pay for. Diet, exercise, and smoking are examples of the choices we make. Hopefully when we bear the direct cost of those choices we will do better with them than we have in the past.


2) The second category is the 10% that will occasionally crop up beyond those routine year to year expenses that we can mitigate the budget impact of by having some backstop insurance (or a HSA) which we also pay for on our own. Most of us will use this similarly to how we use high deductible homeowner or auto insurance and for much the same reasons.

No one can anticipate every possible eventuality. Periodic changes in our basic physical condition may present at any time either as diagnostic work related to some previously undetected chronic condition or as a single injury incident.

Everyone knows that such events happen without warning and that we need to be prepared to meet the financial responsibility of that medical challenge. The healthcare savings account (HSA) or backstop medical insurance plan does this until we are able to absorb that expense otherwise and adjust our budget to include this.

These HSA’s tied into an insurance policy also function as a security measure for institutional providers (Hospitals etc) that incurred charges will be paid.

This shift of nearly total financial responsibility to the individual (or family) is balanced by the shift of nearly all tax deductions related to that same individual; as well as ordering all funds previously paid by their employer as benefits being changed to straight wages instead.

Those who had decent coverage before under an employers plan will continue to be able to afford decent coverage into the future and probably for less in direct costs.

The total of these tax-deductible out of pocket expenses for most individuals and families should be less, in many cases considerably less than what is currently paid by or on behalf of them for a comparable quality of service.

Reasons for the savings will vary but the obvious common business practices of lowering the operating overhead of every provider and initiating actual competition between them for your business will be the primary factors. These medical services can be sourced very frugally or very expensively. Kia or Cadillac is your choice.

Your costs should be what YOU choose to spend for the quality that YOU value.




3) The third category is the 10% that NO ONE can reasonably expect to afford
or in most instances to even insure against privately. These catastrophic and
traumatic bankrupting expenses are the perfect category for and reasonable
limit to a government plan with a tax supported 100% actuarial base.

Despite all the rhetoric in the news there are very few working Americans who will be affected by medical treatment that would personally bankrupt them. Some other insurance like workman’s comp or auto liability is far more likely to be responsible.

That said, the collective risk of illness or injury is still quite real and as medical science marches on ever more conditions will have ever more expensive medications and procedures available to treat them and diagnostics used to rule out or define the less serious. This very well documented expense risk is the largest problem with private insurance carriers as they know can’t afford to actually pay for the level of risk their subscribers represent.

When an incident or a diagnosis presents itself it is quite clear to the medical professionals involved and one more document they manage will be to initiate the expansion of coverage to the affected individual.

Expand the existing and generally well functioning Medicare to cover these catastrophic, traumatic and similar bankruptingly expensive disease treatments that worry everyone so deeply. The intention being to take this entire category of medical practice and their costs off the table as a concern to individuals.

Achieve the 100% actuarial base needed to spread this universal risk to universal funding through the same tax supported means we already have in place.

When the employer paid private insurance was shifted to straight wages (as described above) those funds then get assessed with both the employer and the employee paying a modest percentage of that amount in additional FICA withholding. You’ll never even miss it.

The people who never had employer provided insurance and their employers will see the additional deduction. But, as this group are those who represent the largest of unpaid mandates in the current model… it’s hard to feel great sympathy for them now having to pay a modest contribution toward the social compact.

Accommodating the needs of people with known and expensive to treat conditions remain the problem they are today as they directly represent the largest year to year expense and the largest risk of that growing beyond the merely expensive and into the realm of the bankruptingly expensive. Hiding these costs under multiple layers of administrators and deep inside actuarial pools doesn’t help anyone.


As a society we expect these people to do all they can reasonably do for themselves before they ask society for assistance; but once that threshold is crossed that social compact will be there to give that assistance.

In successive years it is entirely reasonable to expect that this category of expense will require greater funding. Balanced against the overhead and operating efficiency savings in described above it may seem modest enough to just accept.

The alternative will be to review and amend standards of care for savings.

4) If we are truly honest we can add a fourth category: Terminal care.
Stop pretending that anyone gets out alive by refusing to flog and abuse
our elderly and other terminal loved ones and still call it medicine.

Most terminal care expenses are covered under Medicare (the elderly) but it still warrants it’s own category because of how it distorts every other cost statistic. It especially distorts when pointless treatments are used because the misguided emotionality and guilt of survivors mistakenly insist on them.
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