oldman

who are/were they losing the jobs too? union shops? non-union shops?

Peter D

This doesn't directly apply, but my friend's dad (yes, I know, it's amazing that I have friends) was laid off as an estimator at a union plumbing shop. He said they were losing most of their bids to other union shops. They were basically bidding to stay alive.

oldman

we are seeing that happen...large project recently went union....bid at $3.5mil by 3 union shops, winning company took the job at $2.5mil...same price as a non-union shop...

william1978

So the company took the job at a 1million dollar loss strait out of the gate? That doesn't make any sense to me at all.

Peter D

It's simple...cut out your profit (and everything else) and bid the job using an "R" rate instead of an "A" rate.

oldman

there is a lot to it...

the local that the job is in is well known for being a PITA...the BA is an SOB...

but, the shop that took the job is relatively newly organized, and I believe they were fed a line by the BA about doing this job for the hall now, and getting more work down the line...problem is, there isn't much work in he pipeline...

supposedly $250k was kicked in by the local...

but there is no way, with the facts that I know, that this job can be done for that price by a union shop...

even if they are throwing apprentice after apprentice on them, it's not gonna be productive...

job honestly had $800k in material cost and 35,000-37,000 man hours....
it's a 4 month schedule...they started the job 1 month behind schedule....
A-journeymans total package in this local is $77/hr +taxes...

do the math...

just wondering if the OP's company was seeing similar issues?

Peter D

Can you elaborate on this? There is a fund available for the local for EC's to dip into to bid?

oldman

yep...job recovery fund...it's at the discretion of the BA to provide this money to 'win' a job from a non-union shop....

LawnGuyLandSparky

I hate when that happens, and it happened to 15 out of the 16 shops I've worked for! NOt the one I'm with now though...

paul d.

hmmmm..... i just wonder...

oldman

lots of bad management out there...it's amazing....

Sparky480

Are you looking into traveling at all?

william1978

Are you saying that you can really sink a ship?

PhatElvis

Its called the work recovery fund. Some locals pull money out of the labors's checks for the purpose of work recovery. Typically this money goes into the general fund and is is used at the BA's discretion with no rules or accountability.

The process for getting the money requires you tell hall how many man hours you have, who is bidding, the size and when the project bids about a week before the project bids, then they let you know about an hour before bid time how much they will let you have. (as if you know all that info a week before bid day).

Then if you do get the money you have to let them audit your books for labor spent on the job.

You pretty much have to get on your knees and beg for help, and then it is not uncommon for for your union competitors to get this money while you do not, or for them to get a better offer depending on how much ass they kiss. I know per fact this happened to me last yer on a big job ($10M) when the hall said there was no money for the project only to find out one of my union competitors got it and later bragged about how much the hall kicked in to help him out.

PhatElvis

BTW I have been bidding jobs at 7 & 2, cut my labor to a composite rate that does not make sense, cut my material in stock to half price (or less), begged for work recovery money and got cut throat with my suppliers and have still had my ass handed to me on bid day.

What used to be a job with 5 of us bidding on to 3 or 4 GCs is now a freaking circus with 15 shops I have never even heard of bidding them with lots more GCs I have never even heard of on them too. There was actually a time I would not bid a GC on a large job unless I knew them, or if I did they did not get the same price my good GCs got. Not any more, they all get good prices now.

The market has changed and the fat is being cut.

You can not leave a million on the table for a $3M job and not take a hit.

oldman

i've spoken with 2 of the union shops that bid at $3.5, one is on the side for a different project, so they see what is occurring on a daily basis...the other, took a beating on a past project, in this same local, due to promised recovery funds not coming through...

in this particular local, try bringing a foreman in...you'll get nothing but JW's...won't have any apprentices available to you...take one of their foremen, and you may as well go to Vegas and bet on craps...it's about the same odds of success...

RyanB

Then why not go union and give yourself a better chance to compete?

william1978

I think he is union.

RyanB

Doy! Sorry, I assumed from what he wrote that he was non-union but it's pretty clear he is union. My reading comprehension is poor today.

miller_elex

Ohhh... you have got much to learn

I love the Ibew where I am, but in other parts of the country it doesn't sound too hot. There is no problemo getting market recovery funds here, and the non-union side is about $10 cheaper on the manhour package. Sounds like the gap is much larger in other parts of the country.

The non-union guys respect the union here for keeping wages up, and the licensing keeps people coming in from out-of-state. There are a couple large non-union commercial contractors that are respectable, and one large non-union commercial contractor that is a total predator on their help. The two larger respectable non-union contractors have depended upon alot of condo tower work in the recent past, and I know one is hiring but the jobs are far outside of town. The other one hires and fires off the street like no tomorrow but I don't know how they are doing. The third one was hiring for $18 an hour no fringes last I heard, that is unheard of here, even residential is $25, what little housing there is...

Specialty trades like HVAC electrical are looking up. The controls electricians are spread out around sheet metal contractors, mechanical contractors, and manufacturer branch offices. Some do the whole ball-of-wax from design, install, programming, to commissioning. Others just do install. The sooner one union decides it owns the whole controls spectrum, the better, because no one can learn that crap overnight and there are tons of pitfalls that make a great barrier to entry.