brian john

There is an ongoing debate between union and open shop electricians with SOME union men claiming union installations are of a better quality. Few open shop men think or care about this issue, in my experience.

1. I have worked both sides of the fence, tested and inspected both types of installations and CAN NOT tell the difference.

2. I have completed testing on union jobs where the workers received an award from the hall for high quality work. The job was neat and VERY PRETTY. But not a damn thing worked all the switchgear controls were screwed up (Looks ain't everything.)

3. I have worked In Indianapolis, Boston, New York City, Houston, New Orleans, various places in Florida, San Francisco, LA, Buffalo, Newark DE, North Carolina, West VA, New Jersey and a few places I forgot. Jobs were mostly union, some open shop based on this small sample plus all the work I see in my area I see no winner in this discussion.

4. Everybody thinks their work is top notch few men are critical enough of their own work to stand back and say awww crap I messed that up. Let me test and inspect it, I'll write a letter two pages long that will have you hating me in no time.

5. Even fewer owners see, much less criticize the work once their employees install it. It is installed it stays.

Example I just did some testing on a job, neat code compliant job. I had to remove some CBs for high current testing. The load side conductor termination connectors were WAY over tightened so tight I had to beat on my 1/2 drive socket to loosen the Allen Sets. The Allen screw for the 750 kcmil connectors we stripped out.

My point is a neat job means NOTHING if it doesn't work, does not operate per design or has installation issues that could lead to thermal conditions/faults in the future.

Another point 95% of the GFP's we see are not properly tested or set after construction. This feature is VERY CRITICAL to the overall electrical distribution, yet on QUALITY jobs this CRITICAL item is overlooked. What good is straight conduit when the electric room melts down? Additionally few CB's with adjustable OCP's are ever tested or set properly. Minor issue what does it matter if the OCP's do not function properly.

NO BODY HAS A LOCK ON QUALITY. Get over it, forget the lies you were told open you eyes and MAYBE you will learn something.

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I void warranty's

Toronto Sparky

Keep in mind at least half of the unions guys were not trained union.
They were organized long after they were licensed.
That being said I tend to believe non-union apprentices get a lot more exposure to electrical work than union guys do. Especially in the first two years.

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user5941

non union electricians know how.

union electricians know how, but they also know why.

Shado

Again...a blanket statement....

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- Dave ........

"Beware of the Rat....he has no Master...he works how & where he wants...."

Mikeomo

Not true, on top of OJT I spend 6 hrs per week in class plus study time learning the "why's"... Doesn't this union vs. non, one being better than another (or not) EVER get old? It has more to do with the caliber of the person than whether they are union or not.

BDB

I would say years back that it would have been true that union work was better then non-union work. But today I do not think that to be true any more, and I am almost to the point of saying non-union work is better then union today, I said almost ready but not yet.

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Toronto Sparky

Union or Non-Union.. Service guys know best..

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user5941

The vast majority of non union shops do not have a structured apprentiship program.The ABC and IEC represent less than 10% of our non union shops.The educational opportunities are better in the union shops vs the merit shop thats just how it is.It is like saying which is better going to colledge or not going to colledge,most would say going to colledge would be better but you will always find a highschool drop out who became a millionare but they are the exception and not the rule.
when you look at the forest and not the individual trees you find that union shops do have the edge. Sorry if the truth hurts.

captkirk

I agree with Brian. This debate is so old and tired. There is no doubt that the Union does some top notch work and this is comming from a non union guy.

MDShunk

I have a slightly different twist, and I post this with some hesitation. I hate to make generalizations, but at some point the trends become clear.

Union shops tend to ONLY do visually very neat work with top notch material.

Non-union shops can often choose to do very neat or very sloppy work (or anything in between) with any grade of material to meet a certain price point or budget.

The fact that a certain contractor may be often observed doing compliant, but hack-esque, work does not mean that he doesn't have the corporate capability of doing very nice work if the budget would have allowed. By that same token, that also means that there are probably many union men who'd do hack-like work if left to their own devices (matter of fact, I'm pretty sure I can confirm that).

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MDShunk

Brian John's fundamental point was well taken. What he says, in a nutshell, is that it doesn't matter what the job looks like visually if you haven't tended to the details. Details, such as GFP and OCP settings, can become much more than a mere detail when **** hits the fan.

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Peter D

I do perfect work with top grade material 100% of the time.

But seriously, I like that summary. I also think you are right about union companies and the kind of work they do...generally speaking. Me, I'm they type that is happy to do very neat or very sloppy and everything in between. It makes things more interesting that way.

mattsilkwood

its just a shame that us non union hacks have the biggest market share. sorry if the truth hurts.

Peter D

Case in point. I used to work for a large company that often did jobs with ultra neat, artistic pipe work. They also did jobs where it looked like a warehouse full of MC cable exploded. And they did everything in between. Whatever it took to get the job done on time and under budget was how it worked.

Frasbee

Based off what I've heard from electricians who used to be Union, they were teaching me a hell of a lot more than I would've been taught my first year with a Union company.

My first day I was terminating receptacles.

My 2nd month I was helping pull wire and make taps on a commercial job.

My 3rd month I was assisting in troubleshooting, working on hot panels, and by the end of that month learning to bend pipe.

That company used to be Union, and they were sticklers about how things looked, and I used to be a perfectionist.

Now that I'm working with this company and they want me to go go go, the aesthetic quality of my work has deteriorated. I feel like I've made a compromise between speed and quality. I'm still relatively "slow" to their standards but I've never had to go back to and fix something because of how it looked, unlike some of the journeyman's work (some of which I was sent to fix).

It makes me appreciate what I was taught by my last company, that much more.

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gilbequick

You don't give the customer Picasso when they pay for street artist.

If it's in a wall, who cares what it looks like. If it's in a wall does it really look like anything?

MDShunk

You try to sell them on Picasso, but if they still want street artist, you give them street artist.

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Frasbee

Hey now, streets artists can be really cool.

Sometimes...

But definitely if you're in Key West.

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slickvic277

It is a tired argument,there's hacks and pro's on both sides.When I was open shop there would be one union shop that we used to go and fix there work all the time,now that I'm union there's been a few non union shops that we go behind and fix there screw up's.

This is the argument I have all the time with the older(mid 40's and up) union guy's in my local I keep telling them"the gap is closing a whole lot of the non union shop's are educated,the have access to all the information and know how that we do" I have to explain this over and over again.

In my mind being union and earning the wages that we do in my local, to stay competitive you have to have a strong work ethic.Show up on time,every day,work all day,be prepared,be productive and do it right the first time.
Yes we have the best education system set up,but who cares if your work ethic stinks.

I've worked with some real good guy's in my short time in the local,but man, I've seen some real slugs too.

I don't know where this attitude come's from,since I organized I have to go through the local's apprenticeship and they sure do preach and teach the right things.
I just hate laziness.If you clear $1200 a week,break a damn sweat!

MDShunk

Ed Hill's still trying to get guys to give "8 for 8". I think breaking a sweat during that 8 is a bit further down on his list.

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