Union or Non-Union? (only constructive thoughts please) - Page 12 - Electrician Talk - Professional Electrical Contractors Forum

brian john · 08-05-2009, 02:38 PM

[quote=Boneshaker;106534]Not sure how to put a particular quote in, but would like to respond to last post by Brian John.

. However I take great exception to the idea that safety in the work place is just propaganda spewed forth by labor unions. [quote]

I do not necessarily disagree with this. BUT Insurance companies, lawyers and a litigious society contributed greatly.

Quote:

Go back and research the life expectancy of a coal miner or a person working to build the rail system in this country, or even the safety records of people that worked to build the bridges and dams or worked in manufacturing facilities. You will notice that once they organized and became a single voice with a bit of power they were able to force change which over time resulted in safer/better working conditions. Both of which you and I reap the benefits of every day. Are labor unions perfect? I am in no way saying they are, but they certainly have a place in today's society. With out them helping to balance things out our work environments would look more like 1909 as opposed to 2009.
This is a fact, because safety costs money, and unless the men with the purse strings are forced to care about your safety he most lilkely won't. Take a look at the safety records of say China or Mexico, they have next to no safety and it shows in the worker fatality rates.

Let's assume all those workers had lived where would we be with over population and global warming with all the extra off spring.

brian john · 08-05-2009, 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by knowshorts

If you are referring to the tide as the IBEW, then why does it seem like the tide is lowering and all the non-union ships are rising?

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Because for years the unions have done nothing but shoot themselves in the foot at every turn.

Supporting lock step the Democrats, striking in an unpopular strike, acting like fools on TV when the camera crews show up at strike sites, picketing and harassing the public at sites of pickets, damaging equipment while on strike (Washington Post printers strike). Trashing open shop men, calling them names and worse. Need I go on.

arelec · 08-11-2009, 06:40 PM

Can't we all just be friends. We are all electricians here. It is a personal choice which way you want to go. The OP just wanted some "educated" pros and cons, not a "lets bash each others desicions" thread. In my opinion, at least in my area, the union's only real benefit is the pension. The wages and insurance are about equal. The non-union shops give vacation, paid holidays and other small benefits that can really add up. I know it's a crazy thing that we just can't get along. My problem with the union is the BA harrasing us trying to get us to go union when there are literally 100s of guys sitting right now. If the union is so great why do you need to go "recruiting". You should be happy you are way better educated and paid than us low life non-union guys and keep it a secret. Oh yeah more people in the union more money for the corrupt leaders of said union even when ther is no work. now thats a business. Have my employees pay me so they can sit at home. lol I have never worked union but I have a nephew that is. He is on a few boards and whether you beleive it or not, unions know they need to make changes in order to compete with the non-union shops, even with there apprentice programs. It is too bad that the unions have to do the "salting" thing because I know some really good electricians that I would love to hire while they are laid off from the union, but it is way too big of a risk and unfortanately not worth it. Sorry I couldn't help joining in on the fun.

Bob Badger · 08-11-2009, 06:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arelec

Can't we all just be friends.

I think that has been clearly answered.

westernexplorer · 08-11-2009, 09:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arelec

Can't we all just be friends. We are all electricians here. It is a personal choice which way you want to go. The OP just wanted some "educated" pros and cons, not a "lets bash each others desicions" thread. In my opinion, at least in my area, the union's only real benefit is the pension. The wages and insurance are about equal. The non-union shops give vacation, paid holidays and other small benefits that can really add up. I know it's a crazy thing that we just can't get along. My problem with the union is the BA harrasing us trying to get us to go union when there are literally 100s of guys sitting right now. If the union is so great why do you need to go "recruiting". You should be happy you are way better educated and paid than us low life non-union guys and keep it a secret. Oh yeah more people in the union more money for the corrupt leaders of said union even when ther is no work. now thats a business. Have my employees pay me so they can sit at home. lol I have never worked union but I have a nephew that is. He is on a few boards and whether you beleive it or not, unions know they need to make changes in order to compete with the non-union shops, even with there apprentice programs. It is too bad that the unions have to do the "salting" thing because I know some really good electricians that I would love to hire while they are laid off from the union, but it is way too big of a risk and unfortanately not worth it. Sorry I couldn't help joining in on the fun.

When the Union Business Agent comes around to talk, send him to your employer. I'm one of the few who doesn't believe in bottom up organizing. Tell the BA, if you can't sell my employer on the idea, why should I buy it.

arelec · 08-11-2009, 09:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by westernexplorer

When the Union Business Agent comes around to talk, send him to your employer. I'm one of the few who doesn't believe in bottom up organizing. Tell the BA, if you can't sell my employer on the idea, why should I buy it.

We do. He doesn't like my boss. And he never stops bothering us. Hell, the guy has a list wiyh our names and lisence plate numbers. This guy borders on stalker.

brian john · 08-11-2009, 10:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arelec

We do. He doesn't like my boss. And he never stops bothering us. Hell, the guy has a list wiyh our names and lisence plate numbers. This guy borders on stalker.

LIke a salesman pushing an unwanted product, he is doing his job somewhere he will get few members. A few here a few there and he goes home feeling he is making a difference.

Boneshaker · 08-12-2009, 09:44 PM

It's no more fair to lump all unions into one group than it is to lump all non-union companies into a single group. For instance an earlier post made reference to striking in unpopular strikes, acting the fool on tv and name calling. I belong to a trades union in Maine that bargains under a no strike clause, if an agreement can not be reached between management and labor both sides are bound by arbitration. This eliminates all the messy strikes and tom foolery on tv that you speak of. It eliminates job stoppages and it keeps the negotiating process out of the news papers. As far as the name calling and such, it seems to me that most of the sarcastic remarks and underhanded comments on this post are from the open shop side. So perhaps you need to clean up your own house before you start to worry about others. I don't know where you gentlemen are from that you run into these negative situations on such a frequent basis, but I asure you up here in Maine that is not how we treat each other. Whether you are union or non-union is a matter of personal choice, the competition should not be between the labor, the competition should be between management in the bidding process. I do hope that there is enough work to keep us all employed and prosperous, I don't however agree with the mud slinging or arrow throwing from either side. Anyone that would like to have a serious two sided discussion about the pros and cons between union and non-union I am all for that, all the sarcasm and misinformation should probably be left out of it.

That's my opinion, we welcome yours.

arelec · 08-12-2009, 09:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boneshaker

It's no more fair to lump all unions into one group than it is to lump all non-union companies into a single group. For instance an earlier post made reference to striking in unpopular strikes, acting the fool on tv and name calling. I belong to a trades union in Maine that bargains under a no strike clause, if an agreement can not be reached between management and labor both sides are bound by arbitration. This eliminates all the messy strikes and tom foolery on tv that you speak of. It eliminates job stoppages and it keeps the negotiating process out of the news papers. As far as the name calling and such, it seems to me that most of the sarcastic remarks and underhanded comments on this post are from the open shop side. So perhaps you need to clean up your own house before you start to worry about others. I don't know where you gentlemen are from that you run into these negative situations on such a frequent basis, but I asure you up here in Maine that is not how we treat each other. Whether you are union or non-union is a matter of personal choice, the competition should not be between the labor, the competition should be between management in the bidding process. I do hope that there is enough work to keep us all employed and prosperous, I don't however agree with the mud slinging or arrow throwing from either side. Anyone that would like to have a serious two sided discussion about the pros and cons between union and non-union I am all for that, all the sarcasm and misinformation should probably be left out of it.

That's my opinion, we welcome yours.

I agree with you totally. It is always easier to make others look bad than make yourself look good. We are all electricians here and should be friends. I am sorry for what posted.

brian john · 08-13-2009, 07:51 AM

[quote=Boneshaker;108634]It's no more fair to lump all unions into one group than it is to lump all non-union companies into a single group. For instance an earlier post made reference to striking in unpopular strikes, acting the fool on tv and name calling.. And then you say

Quote:

As far as the name calling and such, it seems to me that most of the sarcastic remarks and underhanded comments on this post are from the open shop side. So perhaps you need to clean up your own house before you start to worry about others.

I have NEVER been on an open shop job where there are union contractors where the open shop men caused issues for the union shops. I have been on mostly union jobs where the union members caused issues for the open shop men.

I have NEVER called a union man bad name unprovoked I have been called scab, and rat and various other names over the years. AND SOME OF THIS WHILE BEING A UNION CONTRACTOR.

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I don't know where you gentlemen are from that you run into these negative situations on such a frequent basis, but I asure you up here in Maine that is not how we treat each other.

Try working in New York City, or Delware, Philidelphia, Baltimore, Washington DC (to some extent) and Richmond for starters. I mean Maine; hardly in the USA

Ask our New York City "BROTHERS if they have a big rat they take out with them to open shop jobs.
Open shops NEVER salt union jobs.
Open shops never picket open shops
Open shops do not have derogatory names for union shops.

Quote:

Whether you are union or non-union is a matter of personal choice, the competition should not be between the labor, the competition should be between management in the bidding process. I do hope that there is enough work to keep us all employed and prosperous, I don't however agree with the mud slinging or arrow throwing from either side. Anyone that would like to have a serious two sided discussion about the pros and cons between union and non-union I am all for that, all the sarcasm and misinformation should probably be left out of it.

and this we agree on.

Bob Badger · 08-13-2009, 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boneshaker

As far as the name calling and such, it seems to me that most of the sarcastic remarks and underhanded comments on this post are from the open shop side. So perhaps you need to clean up your own house before you start to worry about others.

When was the last time you saw a bunch of open shop guys show up at a union site and picket, try to intimidate, call names, set up blow up rat dolls, flatten tires, key cars, vandalize the job, try to stop the job etc, etc. I have seen all of that at different construction sites I have worked.

And no, I do not have any proof that the vandalism was in fact done by union members, if might just be a coincidence that it happened when pickets where going on.

If you have not seen the inflatable rat that the union will bring along here is one.

Merit shop guys go to work and mind their own business, many unions feel the need to go and act like real jerks at non union sites.

Boneshaker · 08-13-2009, 04:50 PM

As I said earlier, it is not fair to lump all unions and union members into the same group. I would absolutely be ashamed to admit to being involved with any actions like the ones you have explained. I hope you understand that these actions display a character flaw or a lack of education in the people involved and not the entire body of every union. I have never had any issues with open shop members on any projects that I have ever been on, they do there job and we do ours. My point about the negative attitudes from the open shop side has been derived solely from the sarcastic tone of several post under this topic. I can asure you that there are plenty of profesional gentlemen working on both sides of this issue. I am aware of your view of the cons to being union, but what is on your list of pros to being non-union. I would be happy to list my views to the pros of being union if anyone were interested.

Peter D · 08-13-2009, 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boneshaker

My point about the negative attitudes from the open shop side has been derived solely from the sarcastic tone of several post under this topic.

I'd say it comes from the activity that Bob mentioned in his post. It's also a fact that the union will never be able to live down their past and will be forever stuck with the stigma of their bully tactics. So it's hardly surprising that "negative attitudes" about unions are still alive and well.

Bob Badger · 08-13-2009, 05:01 PM

Boneshaker I do not believe for a moment that every union member or every union is the same, I have only worked in MA, RI and CT.

Often one on one I have no problem at all with the union members, but it is a fact that often we (non-union guys) are treated like we are the scum at the bottom of the porta john by the 'group' and this treatment in my experience is encouraged by the hall.

Boneshaker · 08-13-2009, 05:01 PM

Peter, do you really think that it is constructive to perperuate the stereotype of the unions of years past? Do not punish me for the sins of my fathers.

Peter D · 08-13-2009, 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boneshaker

Peter, do you really think that it is constructive to perperuate the stereotype of the unions of years past? Do not punish me for the sins of my fathers.

I live in the same general area as Bob and I echo his comments.

As for your question of it being constructive or not...yes, I believe it is as long as union thuggery goes on, whether or not you are personally involved in it.

Boneshaker · 08-13-2009, 05:09 PM

Bob Badger, I do not deny that these things happen. It is embarassing to say the least. It is my hope that things are slowly changing for the better. I have held several positions in my local union in the past and our stance has always been education over intimidation.

brian john · 08-13-2009, 05:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boneshaker

Bob Badger, I do not deny that these things happen. It is embarassing to say the least. It is my hope that things are slowly changing for the better. I have held several positions in my local union in the past and our stance has always been education over intimidation.

Many locals seem to be changing, as you stated education (selling the benefits). Not cramming them down someone throats will win over more men.

480sparky · 08-13-2009, 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boneshaker

Bob Badger, I do not deny that these things happen. It is embarassing to say the least. It is my hope that things are slowly changing for the better. I have held several positions in my local union in the past and our stance has always been education over intimidation.

I fund the use of the word 'slowly' interesting.

Peter D · 08-13-2009, 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 480sparky

I fund the use of the word 'slowly' interesting.

How much are you going to fund it?