MDShunk

How do you mean? I know many guys don't get into the apprenticeship the first time around, but many/most do if they try for a second or third time. Is that what you mean?

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brian john

First union tactics are different from area to area.

I have seen the union do more to hurt themselves over the years than to help their lot with people they should be trying to recruit.

1. Calling fellow electricians SCABS and RATS DOES ABSOLUTLY NOTHING to help the already suffering image of unions.
2. Limiting membership to the aforementioned family/friends. When I tried to join the union I was told I stood a snowballs chance in hell of getting in as I was not FAMILY and knew no one that could add pull to my chances. I was told maybe I should consider being a plumber. In the meantime a union boss son get in 6 months later he drops out. GREAT for me NOT>
3. In our area at one time the union bosses were in cahoots with the big shops and made rules to keep new shops from joining, so when a GOOD UNION electrician wanted to open a UNION SHOP he could not and so went non-union.
4. Salting the act of sending a union member to apply for an advertised job at an open shop, then instead of working he would try to recruit or worse sabotage tools and work.
5. Other union trades sabotaging open shop work on a project.
6. Picketting open shops and open shop projects and yelling the above mentioned slurs.
7. Telling open shop employees that want to join that their open shop training is worthless.

The union I believe is trying to change this image for the better BUT this bad behavior will have lasting effects on many open shop workers for some time.

Joe Momma

I think you just named the underlying problem yourself(at least I know I did above)
They want the open shops to convert to union, so then they will be able to bring more guys in. (of course saturation has a major effect, which is more closely the model I was using in the other post)

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Speedy Petey

I see you've been to my area.

joebell

Marc its not as simple here in the Northeast as Brian said you have to have the right last name that is the easiest way to get in. Aprentices seem to have an easy time when the economy is good they give an apptitude test and you can begin work as soon as you begin your schooling but if things are slow your name gets put on a list and you wait. If you are licensed already it is a much tougher road to hoe. Brian you are dead on with those tactics I have seen them all utilized.

nmkuhn

They both definitely have thier downsides. The non union companies seem to be getting rattier every year. The last job I had, The contractor insisted we supply hand benders, cordless drill and sawzall. Since then, I've refused to supply power tools and benders and been denied work because of it.
I started in the trade in indentured servitude in the union. Everything Brian posts is true on this issue, and it gets way more political than that. That being said, at least when you drag a job or take a layoff when you're union, you don't start over with your bennies on the next job.

leftyguitarjoe

the full package bro. I was not a full time employee, so I did not receive the package, but they take care of their employees.

Curt

Unions offer a good flat pay scale, insurance and pension benefits but no guarantee of steady work. When back in the hall a new job could take you anywhere in city or suburbs. You will only do one type of work. Electrical. They train well but expect a lot as there are many in the hall still waiting for work so if you don't meet there standards (quota ) you will be let go. If lucky and dependable and very experienced you could land a job with a steady future. Pay scales will vary depending on where you work. Here in Chicago union pay is around $35/hr in the city to about $27/hr in the suburbs. Nonunion pay is $25 to $30 with varying benefits. The union work is divided into catagories with little overlapping. Commercial, residential and phone/data. Chicago is a right to work town so if licensed by the city (supervising electrician) unions have to let you work in their enviornment. I am non union but licensed and hold a contractors license as well. This to me was the best of both worlds. I get equal pay, full paid health insurance, fully employer paid pension plan, and worked out a deal when hired that if we pulled in strictly electrical work I get an equal share of the profits.. I dumped this into my pension and look to retire soon! The benefits for me were great and I get to do everything besides electrical. We work from commercial (schools, offices) to luxury highrises. In 20yrs I have never been laid off and work a 40 hour week with overtime only when I want it. I worked union for 5 years previous and found the work very demanding with an attitude of us against them. The steady work from a small company was a lot easier to handle. Plus it is a more flexible environment as far as time off is concerned. You really have to decide what you expect for your time and when ready negotiate a good future.

Joe Momma

How is this different from non-union? If a guy is not up to par why wouldn't he be sent down the road?

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sparkysteve

I'm not trying to start a fight. Just sharing my experience. If you're happy where you are, I'm thrilled.

I'm in the merit system and am happy. I'm paid well, have good benefits and insurance, recieve job incentive bonuses, have never been laid off in 7 years, and enjoy my work. My apprenticeship classes were paid for by my boss. I passed my J-man exam on the first shot. The union isn't very prominent in my area. Unions make up maybe 20% of contractors. A few surrounding cities have strong unions. We work there too. I know some union guys are fine to work with. But I've dealt with far more unsavory union members. I've been called a rat, scab, etc. just showing up to work every morning. Had work sabotaged, material stolen and scattered, lifts unpluged at night, gang-boxes overturned, tires slashed, conduit filled with mortar, wire cut, deliberate lack of coordination, ladders and scaffold broken, you name it. I've been told how to vote every fall. I've been called every 4-letter word in the book for having a W-'04 sticker on my truck. Apperently I'm not entitled to my on opinion. I didn't force mine on theirs. I don't want to be associated with ANY group with ANY number of members like that.

I know this doesen't represent all union members, just many I've dealt with in my career.

If I think I deserve a raise I'll ask my boss for one. Our company president, along with many others I know of many trades, have said, that if their employees join the union they will close up shop or sell. We are currently an ABC member. I think union numbers are on the decline for a reason. Employess don't need the protection they used too. There are plenty of good and bad on both sides of the union line. I prefer the side I'm on. To each their own though. The union does pay well and benefits continue with a transfer to a different company. I've wished I had that once.

To each their own. Just guys showing up and earning a paycheck.

brian john

[quote]Unions offer a good flat pay scale, insurance and pension benefits but no guarantee of steady work. When back in the hall a new job could take you anywhere in city or suburbs. You will only do one type of work. Electrical/quote]


I am union and have worked steady for 37 years.
The variety of work (IN MY AREA) is much more limited in open shops. Most testing companies are Union 9 out of 10. In the union as I came up I did controls, generators, ATS's work, fire alarm and the aforementioned electrical testing.. I think it is very difficult to discuss union VS open shop as it varies local to local.

Joe Momma

When back in the hall you take whatever job you wish. And steady work(as with any job) is completely dependant on how valuable of a person you are.

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Curt

In Chicago a non union shop is not as demanding. THey give out jobs but for the most part the time you take is what it is within reason. Probably because bids are made from experience and known times rather than computed by an estimator dedicated to that trade who usually calculates on work without a visual impression of environment. A non union shop can have more slop in their estimate also simply because of wage and benefit differences. Chicago has many people in the hall waiting for work and really don't chose their jobs but are offered them based on seniority. I work along side union people all the time and hear countless stories of being bounced around and being laid off. I have been told the first ten years are the worst and then it all starts to click. The benefits for the owner of a union shop here is he can hire and lay off as his work demand changes and when rehiring he can expect at least people with equal skills due to the trade schooling. A non union shop will accept a lesser worker just because skill levels are so varied and cannot be tested until hired. All major construction jobs in Chicago are union simply because of the labor pool at their disposal. Most all residential projects are non-union due to costs. It has been said a price of a home in Chicago would cost 2 1/2 times more if built with pure union labor. Really, all has to be inspected before any occupancy permits are issued and the inspectors here do their job full time and are very well versed in code so all work will at least meet building standards. The suburbs are a different story.

I have really enjoyed hearing how this all works in various areas and I hope this thread fills up with everyones tales.

Joe Momma

Good post Curt though semi-biased.
Again I'll point out that union versus non shops each build their own shops, perhaps I'll put it this way; some guys are and will always be "help" while others are employees, on both sides of the fence this is true.
Good training is crucial, but does not make an "employee". If a particular guy 'just doesn't get it' he will be used for his abilities then when his limitations are met he will be sent down the road.
Every job has a "crunch" time where the shop puts in calls to meet demand, guys that aren't "fitting in" at their current jobs take the call (of course with the pretense that they weren't being treated well), their ignorance and help is hugely appreciated. Their caliber is easily noticed, but will be sent to other jobs, either by the respect of the brotherhood, or perhaps to find their fit, or because a big OT project is coming up, or perhaps to wait till they drag, but always when the shop gets back to their normal flow the excess will be cut off and this has nothing to do with rank or seniority.
Fact is that anyone upset over a lay-off feels they are better than what they are. Regardless, lay-offs are a neccessity of any contractor with multiple large jobs, but if the guy complains of bouncing through different contractors then there is something else going on(perhaps his flapping jaw got him sent down the road(why else would he be telling his life story while on the clock Curt?). Hell, I'm still an apprentice and can hand pick the guys I want helping me after only meeting them for a few minutes, and yes I did say "helping ME". Though I would never cosider a senior hand as help, I merely try to be a guide and a liaison to the typical ways the shop likes to do things, and of course a 'fetcher' while he/they take time to 'consider'.

I've gotten way off subject now, but another thing; I thought the union also controls the housing market in Chicago, and that's whay they still pipe homes?

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DavidHutton

Ive weighed the pros and cons with going union or staying independent. The local 80 in my area is not very strong. There is simply not a lot of union work around here. and i make wayyyy more than a 2 year union apprentice. I think it would be ok as a jw to join, but as far as money and what not for apprentices, i think im better off independent. It seems like theres a huge amount of band wagoning going on with union vs non union. I know union apprentices that are 100% pro union that act like theres no other way than union. In my "opinion" unions bankrupt the very industry there members belong to. So how does that help the workers? The IBEW in my "opinion" is the only union that really has any real basis for existing. Electricians especially lineman put there lives on the line for there jobs. We make the world possible.
we should pull together and look out for one another. but as long as theres someone whos willing to work for cheaper...the union wont be a strong as it could be. and whats up with the whole flat rate thing? if a jw knows more than another jw he should make more than him. Thats another thing i dont agree with.

gilbequick

Duplicate

gilbequick

If he's that much better he could be the next foreman and the other guy is still a JW, or when things get slow the better more knowledgeable guy will be around and the other will get the lay off. The crappy JW's don't tend to be employed as much because they're not really worth their pay rate comparitively.


Also, where else are you going to start as a first year apprectice and in 4-5 years be making top pay? Not too many places.

calimurray

Union is a good choice if you can get accepted, you'll have great benefits and good pay with usually a pension. I know for a fact the union near my house guarantee's 5 yrs. of work for an apprentice, when you a journeyman your on your own.
Near my area the Union will allow you to work on all kinds of jobs a regular non union contractor couldn't touch, which will result in a lot of great experiences and good knowledge.

If you have a chance to go union and the work in that local is abundant I'd say go for it!


If you cant get in the union right away there is plenty of non union contractors out there that can provide you with good experiences, benefits, and good pay also. In my time as a non union electrician i have not been layed off in a long time, knock on wood! I make about 80% of journeyman wages in most locals and I am generally happy with my job.

calimurray

Union is a good choice if you can get accepted, you'll have great benefits and good pay with usually a pension. I know for a fact the union near my house guarantee's 5 yrs. of work for an apprentice, when you a journeyman your on your own.
Near my area the Union will allow you to work on all kinds of jobs a regular non union contractor couldn't touch, which will result in a lot of great experiences and good knowledge.

If you have a chance to go union and the work in that local is abundant I'd say go for it!


If you cant get in the union right away there is plenty of non union contractors out there that can provide you with good experiences, benefits, and good pay also. In my time as a non union electrician i have not been layed off in a long time, knock on wood! I make about 80% of journeyman wages in most locals and I am generally happy with my job.

Frasbee

This sounds like it would be heavily dependent upon the local union, and open shops available in an individual's area. Because it sounds like Union locals themselves can vary just as much as the open shops.