Union vote - Page 3 - Electrician Talk - Professional Electrical Contractors Forum

IRMAN · 11-01-2009, 09:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IRMAN

Bologna!!!!!!!

I did not right that.....
:

RIVETER · 11-01-2009, 09:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brian john

So what will happen is Ford will open any new plants and possible relocate existing plants to Mexico, India or China or fold or go on the dole like GM and Chrysler.

Everything has to be taken in consideration. In Europe, the pay scale is TEN dollars more an hour than here. The companies that will leave there to come back to THE USA will have no wasted sorrow for the plants they close there.
Right now, the USA is the place to be and the companies will follow that without hesitating. The bottom line is that they are making ten dollars an hour more on OUR LABOR. If you stand up and ask for a little (PIECE OF THE ACTION), is that so bad?

brian john · 11-01-2009, 09:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RIVETER

. If you stand up and ask for a little (PIECE OF THE ACTION), is that so bad?

Not at all, you have to work 40 get what you can

LJSMITH1 · 11-01-2009, 10:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RIVETER

Everything has to be taken in consideration. In Europe, the pay scale is TEN dollars more an hour than here. The companies that will leave there to come back to THE USA will have no wasted sorrow for the plants they close there.
Right now, the USA is the place to be and the companies will follow that without hesitating. The bottom line is that they are making ten dollars an hour more on OUR LABOR. If you stand up and ask for a little (PIECE OF THE ACTION), is that so bad?

Did you take into account the Euro vs US Dollar value? Is that $10/hr more including the same value in benefits? Where did you get your information??

You are not comparing apples to apples. Unfortunately, the USA is *not* the "place to be" right now for many manufacturing companies - including the auto industry. For too long, we have sat back on our laurels and watched the rest of the developed world catch up to us. Now we expect that when they get too close, we will just pick up where we left off and leave them in the dust...

Not so easy as it used to be. These folks have the same technology, similar skilled workforce - paid lower, and lower internal costs from lean manufacturing efforts.

When you are the best and at the top of the heap, you can charge a premium and pay higher wages - not having to worry too much about competition. Unfortunately, when you are mediocre, you can't charge premium prices, and thus have to pay a mediocre wage.

This entitlement mentality has come home to roost....eventually something needs to give. If its not the union demands, it will be the company going bankrupt. Then NOBODY will have a job....

...not even those overpaid CEO's...These folks need to ask themselves, is it worth the fight for another 2-4%/year increase during the worst time in the world economy to be asking for such a thing? Don't forget, the demands are NOT just about prevailing wages...they are about bigger dollar items like PENSIONS, FULL MEDICAL, ETC..

For me, I'd rather have a mediocre paying job than no job at all...When times are better, then I would stand up and ask for more.

RIVETER · 11-01-2009, 10:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LJSMITH1

Did you take into account the Euro vs US Dollar value? Is that $10/hr more including the same value in benefits? Where did you get your information??

You are not comparing apples to apples. Unfortunately, the USA is *not* the "place to be" right now for many manufacturing companies - including the auto industry. For too long, we have sat back on our laurels and watched the rest of the developed world catch up to us. Now we expect that when they get too close, we will just pick up where we left off and leave them in the dust...

Not so easy as it used to be. These folks have the same technology, similar skilled workforce - paid lower, and lower internal costs from lean manufacturing efforts.

When you are the best and at the top of the heap, you can charge a premium and pay higher wages - not having to worry too much about competition. Unfortunately, when you are mediocre, you can't charge premium prices, and thus have to pay a mediocre wage.

This entitlement mentality has come home to roost....eventually something needs to give. If its not the union demands, it will be the company going bankrupt. Then NOBODY will have a job....

...not even those overpaid CEO's...These folks need to ask themselves, is it worth the fight for another 2-4%/year increase during the worst time in the world economy to be asking for such a thing? Don't forget, the demands are NOT just about prevailing wages...they are about bigger dollar items like PENSIONS, FULL MEDICAL, ETC..

For me, I'd rather have a mediocre paying job than no job at all...When times are better, then I would stand up and ask for more.

Larry, I choose to stand up for what I believe ALL OF THE TIME. That is your choice. If you always wait until the climate is good to take your stand, that makes you a follower. If you are GOOD WITH THAT, who am I to say differently?

RIVETER

RIVETER · 11-01-2009, 10:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IRMAN

Bologna!!!!!!!

This is not the time to spell it right...

LJSMITH1 · 11-01-2009, 11:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RIVETER

Larry, I choose to stand up for what I believe ALL OF THE TIME. That is your choice. If you always wait until the climate is good to take your stand, that makes you a follower. If you are GOOD WITH THAT, who am I to say differently?

RIVETER

So I guess you like to gamble too?

This is not about some philosophy, or dogma..It's just business...period. Whether you like it or not, you, me, and the rest of us who work for a paycheck are part of the BUSINESS ENGINE and CAPITALISM. Period. You can get all 'touchy feely' about what you think you are worth...and you can pound your chest until blood comes out your nostrils...but the only time anyone will listen is when you bring something extra to the table.

No sir..I am not a follower...I am a climber. I climb above those who are happy with the status quo work ethic...I strive to learn all I can about the things I am involved with...to better myself and climb to another level...because I bring something else to the table that makes me worth more. By doing that, I am investing in my future and my family's well being.

I have been laid off 2x in my 21 year career...with little to no severance. My ego took a big hit the first time, by the second, I was in a better frame of mind. I had a mortgage, wife, kid...the usual stress of putting food on the plate. I didn't whine and complain and decide to picket my former employers to show them how bad they treated me. I picked myself up by my bootstraps and found another job within a very short amount of time. No welfare, no job banks, no IRA to keep me afloat...

However, once I realized that the layoffs had nothing to do with *ME* and everything to do with the business tanking, I was much better off. I immersed myself in learning something new every day, and making myself more valuable to my employer. That is how it works. I don't expect my employer to give me a raise just because I am doing what I already am compensated for. I bring something more to the table every year to demonstrate my increased value.

You sir are a follower...you follow those that fight your fight for you. You belong to a collective. I have no problem with that, and I respect your choice. But keep in mind that it is your *choice* to be a follower. Nobody is holding a gun to your head to join the club...

miller_elex · 11-02-2009, 12:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RIVETER

In Europe, the pay scale is TEN dollars more an hour than here. The companies that will leave there to come back to THE USA will have no wasted sorrow for the plants they close there.

The planes lifted-off from europe, flew over the Atlantic, flew over the good old USA, and touched down in Guadalajara.

Can't compete with Mexican labor, and no trade barriers. Isn't most of a Ford truck made in Mexico anyway? What, are you so proud that you get to put all the Mexican parts together into the finished product?

Get real. Does seniority mean much when they shut-down the whole plant? You might be a great worker, but when it comes to paying the top-notch health benefits of yourself, all those retirees, and guaranteed pensions, we can't compete with workers down south (the US south as well,) the UAW is as much to blame for lost american manufacturing jobs as much as Nafta is.

RIVETER · 11-02-2009, 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by miller_elex

The planes lifted-off from europe, flew over the Atlantic, flew over the good old USA, and touched down in Guadalajara.

Can't compete with Mexican labor, and no trade barriers. Isn't most of a Ford truck made in Mexico anyway? What, are you so proud that you get to put all the Mexican parts together into the finished product?

Get real. Does seniority mean much when they shut-down the whole plant? You might be a great worker, but when it comes to paying the top-notch health benefits of yourself, all those retirees, and guaranteed pensions, we can't compete with workers down south (the US south as well,) the UAW is as much to blame for lost american manufacturing jobs as much as Nafta is.

The cost of labor for our vehicles, including health, is 4 to5 percent of the total price of the vehicle...Guess where a lot of the extra money goes.

IRMAN · 11-02-2009, 07:36 PM

Good point about labor. The robots do the work. How about Ford. They are not a government owned car company. How about that profit, I am proud of that!!!!
DRIVE ONE! American oldest car maker, I know riveter that you are proud to be a part of that!!!

LJSMITH1 · 11-02-2009, 08:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RIVETER

The cost of labor for our vehicles, including health, is 4 to5 percent of the total price of the vehicle...Guess where a lot of the extra money goes.

Where do you get your numbers from?? Links?

Labor is absolutely a significant portion of a vehicle's cost - second to only materials. Not just at assembly, but at the subcomponent level as well. You need to expand your mind beyond the hourly wage mentality and include all of the other forms of compensation. Do you really want to know where the bulk of that "extra money" really goes?? Legacy Costs...

The pensions, Job Banks, retiree health insurance, etc. etc..All non value added costs that anyone who buys an automobile will pay for. The problem is that many of our foreign counterparts don't have these high legacy costs to deal with (they do have health care and other benefits, but mainly for active workers). Read this article:

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/...,2031804.story

Quote:

In today's globalized, just-in-time economy, companies need to be nimble. When the economy slows and demand shrinks, companies need to be able to cut back production and costs commensurately -- or else they shouldn't expect to survive. That has always been exceedingly difficult for high-fixed-cost industries, but one of the main reasons the Big Three has such high fixed costs is that collective bargaining has made labor a fixed cost. Yes, it has become more variable pursuant to the most recent contract, but it's still not variable enough. The infamous Jobs Bank is a perfect example. How can General Motors expect to cut costs when demand shrinks if it is obligated to pay obsolete workers almost their entire salaries for two years to not work?

According to GM's 2008 tax filing, its operating costs in 2007 were $179 billion, of which $53 billion were fixed costs. Included in those fixed costs are "manufacturing labor, pension and other post retirement employee benefits (OPEB) costs, engineering expenses and marketing related costs." The bulk of those costs is the product of labor-management negotiations. Assign blame to the parties as you see fit, but without the union in play, labor costs certainly wouldn't be so fixed -- or so high.

Total compensation is the cost of labor to the companies, and for GM it is about $73 per hour and for Toyota about $48. The average cost differential between the Big Three and all the foreign nameplate companies is about $30 per hour.

Here's a nice chart for you:

http://mjperry.blogspot.com/2008/11/...-per-hour.html

RIVETER · 11-02-2009, 08:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LJSMITH1

Where do you get your numbers from?? Links?

Labor is absolutely a significant portion of a vehicle's cost - second to only materials. Not just at assembly, but at the subcomponent level as well. You need to expand your mind beyond the hourly wage mentality and include all of the other forms of compensation. Do you really want to know where the bulk of that "extra money" really goes?? Legacy Costs...

The pensions, Job Banks, retiree health insurance, etc. etc..All non value added costs that anyone who buys an automobile will pay for. The problem is that many of our foreign counterparts don't have these high legacy costs to deal with (they do have health care and other benefits, but mainly for active workers). Read this article:

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/...,2031804.story

Here's a nice chart for you:

http://mjperry.blogspot.com/2008/11/...-per-hour.html

So you are saying that you have no opinion. Why are you so upset? If you are doing everything right? Then don't worry about the rest of us and the rest of our working preferences. What have you got to hide? Are you a CLOSET union worker and fell out of favor? What gives?

Peter D · 11-02-2009, 09:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IRMAN

DRIVE ONE! American oldest car maker, I know riveter that you are proud to be a part of that!!!

Does this include Ford vehicles assembled in Oakville, Ontario or Hermsillo, Mexico? Or should we boycott them because they are foreign?

Black4Truck · 11-02-2009, 09:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter D

Does this include Ford vehicles assembled in Oakville, Ontario or Hermsillo, Mexico? Or should we boycott them because they are foreign?

WOW.. great point

I thought Ford was strictly USA.. how did the Union ever let that happen

RIVETER · 11-02-2009, 09:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter D

Does this include Ford vehicles assembled in Oakville, Ontario or Hermsillo, Mexico? Or should we boycott them because they are foreign?

We, U.S. ford workers, did not ask Ford to go to foreign places for some of their vehicles. We preferred that they did not but we had no say. That does not mean that we aren't PROUD of what they allow us to build.
By the way, IRMAN, Are you from Indiana? Anyway, thanks. I am a Ford UNION worker but I definitely wish the best for all of the autoworkers... and actually for everyone,union or not, who get up every day and does their best to support their families.

brian john · 11-02-2009, 11:38 PM

Ford vans 86% manufactured in the USA highest percentage of any American Vehicle.

RIVETER · 11-02-2009, 11:46 PM

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Originally Posted by brian john

Ford vans 86% manufactured in the USA highest percentage of any American Vehicle.

, I didn't know that...Thanks for your response.

LJSMITH1 · 11-03-2009, 12:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RIVETER

So you are saying that you have no opinion. Why are you so upset? If you are doing everything right? Then don't worry about the rest of us and the rest of our working preferences. What have you got to hide? Are you a CLOSET union worker and fell out of favor? What gives?

I'm not upset, just disappointed in your lack of knowledge and baseless facts that you keep spouting.

Do a bit more research please.

As for being a "closet union worker"

Too funny! LOL!

And before you accuse me of being communist or something, let me state that I have been primarily a Chrysler Corporation customer for at least 18 years. I have owned a 96 Grand Caravan, 94 & 98 Intrepid, a 01 Durango, and now a 06 Jeep Grand Cherokee. I think I have definitely done my part in supporting AMERICAN auto workers. I also just bought a 2006 Toyota Sienna AWD for the wife and kids - Made (er..assembled) in America.. The only foreign vehicle I own is my 1999 BMW K1200LT motorcycle. I hope that's ok with you.

RIVETER · 11-04-2009, 08:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LJSMITH1

I'm not upset, just disappointed in your lack of knowledge and baseless facts that you keep spouting.

Do a bit more research please.

As for being a "closet union worker"

Too funny! LOL!

And before you accuse me of being communist or something, let me state that I have been primarily a Chrysler Corporation customer for at least 18 years. I have owned a 96 Grand Caravan, 94 & 98 Intrepid, a 01 Durango, and now a 06 Jeep Grand Cherokee. I think I have definitely done my part in supporting AMERICAN auto workers. I also just bought a 2006 Toyota Sienna AWD for the wife and kids - Made (er..assembled) in America.. The only foreign vehicle I own is my 1999 BMW K1200LT motorcycle. I hope that's ok with you.

Thank you for your service.

LJSMITH1 · 11-04-2009, 09:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RIVETER

Thank you for your service.

My "service"??

I didn't realize owning an American car is considered a "service" to the Union

...Hmmm...maybe it is...Maybe I inadvertently contributed to the corporate greed...

Maybe I am just patriotic!

Actually, its called giving the customer what they want. I wanted those cars, they fit within my budget, and they served me well (for the most part)...but I learned a long time ago that all dealer service is a ripoff and a joke. So I do all my own work except for warranty issues...I guess that makes me a hack....