Originally Posted by PhatElvis

Its funny how if a few business owners get together and agree to set their rates is called collusion, but when a few electrician get together to set their rates its called organizing.

Practices that facilitate tacit collusion include:

• Uniform prices
• A penalty for price discounts
• Advance notice of price changes
• Information exchange

Sound familiar:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collusion

Its amazing what PAC money can get you...

Originally Posted by LJSMITH1

That collusion stuff is everywhere! Phone companies, airlines, milk, steel, etc... OPEC...

IMHO ALL PAC money has corrupted the core of the USA government - I don't care where it came from.

Originally Posted by LJSMITH1

Who or what do you think determines the market value of labor?? You, your union, some board of directors somewhere?

None of the above. What determines the value of one hour of labor is what we and our contractors agree to.

What you fail to realize and accept is that labor is a commodity. You won't accept it because you probably equate it with "pork rhinds" or "grain futures". Sad as it may seem, our labor is the only thing we have to sell that is truly ours. So, if the employer is offering $X/hr, and you want $Y/hr, there is no deal. If all of your competition wants the same $Y/hr, then the employer is going to realize that the going rate is not $X/hr but $Y/hr. and then there will be a deal. We don't live in a "one price fits all world".

Like it or not, there are niche markets. And not all labor is equal in everyone's eyes.

What is amazing is how much more labor is valued when labor is at work, getting paid, and getting nothing accomplished and the employer is shelling out paychecks while hemmoraging his profits.

Funny how it seems labor IS worth a 3,4 or 5% increase after all...

And no matter how you personally feel about this - somehow the world just keeps on turnin'!

What you also fail to recognize is that TWO parties need to agree for employment to occur.

true, but what you fail to accept is those 2 parties need not be the actual employer and employee. ONE of those parties could be the employee's representitive, as more often than not - the employer is also represented by a 3rd party.


If your tactic is to hold the employer "hostage" to get what you want, then don't be surprised if the employer goes out of business rather than sign up for something that they can't sustain. I'm sure that you wouldn't care anyway because you probably believe in a "scorched earth" policy. That is, if the company does not give into your demands, put them out of business by striking and severely disrupting the business.

I don't subcribe what you're suggesting as "scortched earth." There are many employers profiting and making bo-koo bucks off our labor and skills. Now, some johnny-come-lately ( a newly organized shop) decides thay have a better plan - that plan, no matter how many times this occurs, is always the same - make MY life harder and the company's more profitable. Sorry... there IS a standard and I will NOT lower it. THIS is how much you're entitled to earn while employing tens, hundreds, or thoudands of my brethern and NO MORE. WE get the rest - don't like it? Then become a pirate or do something else more lucrative but as long as you intend to do business that involves members of MY brotherhood, then THIS is how you will conduct your business. The same way everyone else does.

Whatever your plan is for making money it will NOT cause a degredation of my income, my work, or my lifestyle or my standards.


Uh...yes. I believe that compensation is tied to contribution to the company. That's how most people are paid. My employer only owes me for what I have worked for. I only owe them my continued labor "product".

There is a little matter of profit. PROFIT is the difference between what labor is paid and what labor is sold for.

The situation involves labor works, it's labor and it's resulting product is priced and there becomes a leftover "profit." The matter of HOW those profits are SPLIT and what is or is not fair will ALWAYS be a bone of contention between a company and it's workforce.

When banded together, labor can ENJOY and PARTAKE in more of that profit. Company gets less. Too phucking bad.


It's not "MY" game, nor is it a "race to the bottom"...Let me explain again...its the market that determines the cost of labor.

NO, the market can be manipulated.

You cannot say a person who mows lawns is worth $100.00 a day until 500 Mexicans show up and then tell him he's only worth $25.00 a day.

Of course, this is EXACTLY what you want to tell him...

If all candidates are in a salary range, than that range becomes the market price. EVERYONE has a price, some are higher or lower than others. There will be no "bottom" as you put it because even those that value their services less than you have a limit on what they can live on. Just like you won't want to overpay for something, employers are in the same boat with materials, services, and of course, labor.



Definition for Labor Cartel:
It is a formal organization of trade labor that agrees to coordinate and control wages and labor resources for those that require the trade labor. The aim of such collusion is to increase individual members' wages by reducing or eliminating competition.

Here's an article that goes into detail.
http://www.rightsidenews.com/2009052...e-economy.html

Couple of quotes from that article:

I won't follow your link because I know where it's going to take me. Like it or not - when Sq. Ft. office space is priced - it is what it is and you pay it. When gas goes up - it is what it is and you pay it. When your utilities and rolling stock and materials prices increase - you pay it... And labor should be no different.

One hour - Journeyman - costs this much. Period...

Basically, what profiteers are doing these days is competing to provied the lowest paid workers to make the highest profits - this scheme does not work unless the profiteers can get the workers to partake in the same folly - compete for lower wages.

Stick together and demand nothing less than a minimum standard and the profiteer's easy game of numbers no longer becomes easy - and they actually have to work THEMSELVES in order to profit - like, provide exceptional management.


Now, I am sure you will want to bash me repeatedly about the head, neck and face, but there are plenty of folks that are of the same opinion.

plenty of plantation-mentality brainwashed people out there. But majority doesn't rule here - were that the case there would be no unions.

In your mind, we are all wrong - and that's fine. You go on and believe what you want, and I'll do the same.

What you need to realize and accept is that the bottom line is competition is EVERYWHERE. From your kids school, to the local grocery store, to the world economy. Unions despise competition in a competitive world because it interferes with their growth and sustainability.

In the real world and in the grand scheme of things there is no competition between people.

I want a nice life - I want nice things and so does everybody else. The "contest" or the competition is a TOOL only capitalists use to pit worker A against worker B, C and D in order to squeeze more production out of worker A and thereby profit off the sweat and the fear of worker A so that the capitalist can live in the lap of luxury simply by forcing the lemmings to wage an economic contest against each other.

While the profiteering capitalist laughs all the way to the bank.

I am not trying to change you, just explain a different point of view.

Originally Posted by PhatElvis

Its funny how if a few business owners get together and agree to set their rates is called collusion, but when a few electrician get together to set their rates its called organizing.

The difference beinng, business is supposed to compete. Workers are not. This is the "playing field."

So, that being the rules of the game, what are you so distressed that when a bunch of shops get together to commit an illegal act that workers doing the same thing, which is NOT illegal, is a problem?

I'll tell you why-

Because you're a greedy capatilist and your race to the top depends on everyone else racing to the bottom.

Sorry that everyone else isn't as ignorant as you'd like them to be.

Practices that facilitate tacit collusion include:

• Uniform prices
• A penalty for price discounts
• Advance notice of price changes
• Information exchange

Sound familiar:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collusion

Its amazing what PAC money can get you...

Originally Posted by LawnGuyLandSparky

Originally Posted by LawnGuyLandSparky

Originally Posted by Peter D

Nobody is listening to you or cares about what you have to say.

Originally Posted by LJSMITH1

Wow, a tough guy who thinks he is so smart. It's too bad you are thoroughly brainwashed to see the real world.

Been on boths sides of the fence LJ, I've seen a lot. There IS brainwashing from BOTH sides I can 1/2 agree with you there. But the real brainwashing is either side assuming their's is the only correct perception or point of view.

Actually, if you are so smart, how come you are not running your own outfit? That way you can show everyone else how its done!
...

Originally Posted by LawnGuyLandSparky

Originally Posted by Bob Badger

He would have to be a door knob to be simpler than your posts make you appear.

Originally Posted by LawnGuyLandSparky

I don't think there are too many outfits I can tap into who don't kow "how it's done." And... I'm smart enough to know my limitations and my faults and my weaknesses. I LIKE clocking out and putting it all behind w/o a care or a worry... and I can assure you, going off on my own, save for some quick cash sidework is the SMARTEST thing I've never done.

Originally Posted by LJSMITH1

..and I know I am not a door knob....

Originally Posted by LJSMITH1

Who or what do you think determines the market value of labor?? You, your union, some board of directors somewhere?

Originally Posted by LawnGuyLandSparky

None of the above. What determines the value of one hour of labor is what we and our contractors agree to.

Originally Posted by Bob Badger

Nope, we may disagree on some subjects but I have never once thought of you as simplistic.

But I think you have an uphill fight.

Originally Posted by Bob Badger

We have to realize the person responding has no clue of real life, they have become entirely assimilated to life in their own little spot in the world they work in and the union they belong to. They can not look beyond that area or even acknowledge another area exists.

Originally Posted by Bob Badger

The troubling thing to me is they hide behind some moral high ground of 'workers rights' when it is clear it has little to do with anyones rights and everything to do with the income of a specific small group.

Originally Posted by Bob Badger

They certainly do not care or respect a workers right not to be in a union.

Originally Posted by Bob Badger

I fully admit that there is good and bad on both sides. There are a lot of open shop owners that do take advantage of their worker, I just see that as more of an issue for an indivdule to deal with on their own.

Originally Posted by Peter D

Nobody is listening to you or cares about what you have to say.

Originally Posted by rewire

You are wrong I am listening and I care what he has to say

Originally Posted by LJSMITH1

My skills, experience, and education dictate my market value. Its not a professional group or other organization that creates the value point.

Originally Posted by rewire

Your employer dictates your market value.

Originally Posted by rewire

Your employer dictates your market value.