Originally Posted by bward76

Wrong!!! Two completly seperate organizations with a contract between the two. I need to roll up my pants, it's getting a little deep.

Originally Posted by John Valdes

I have worked both. And I have to agree with you. Given the chance, I would take a union job over a non-union job any day.
Keep in mind. It's been over 20 years since I had a ticket. I really do believe the ones that berate the union have never been a member. Once you have been a member nothing compares. And believe me, I have been comparing for many years. More years than I want to remember.

Originally Posted by Power Tech

Even if the fringe is paid in cash?

Originally Posted by RIVETER

What you have said does not make sense...don't diminish what the man has said.

Originally Posted by e57

Contract?!? They're practically in bed together....

Originally Posted by JayH

It just is complete misinformation.

Originally Posted by minibdr

Love this post I should scan a copy of my check to go along with it.Last week worked 35 and 35 took home 3,300 $ and 1500 in bennies.lol and had sunday off.

Originally Posted by Peter D

Why don't you quote instead of responding in list format?

Originally Posted by Bob Badger

Its' too complicated, the union is not here to hold his hand and show him how.

Originally Posted by Power Tech

You said it, "employers". I do not have a factory with 1000's of workers. I am in the ditch and on the lift with them. I know what you are saying about big business and factory labor. Contractors are so regulated that if they do break the law it will be just a mater of time before it catches up with them.

HA1 Contractors break the laws all the time, and rarely get caught. Only the most blatant and aggregious are ever prosecuted, and it rarely involves jail time.

Come on, the only thing I can discriminate against is smoking and tattoos.

I think the workers of the US are far more organized than businessmen.

I do not think you comprehend at all the difference between being a contractor and an employee. A contractor has more rules to follow when it comes to the employee, than the employee has with the contractor.

I guess you never saw an employee handbook?

The laws are geared for the employee.

Wrong, in fact in the U.S. labor laws are a joke when compared to any other developed nation.

The contractor RISKS his money and time gambling that he can do the job for a stated price. If it don't come in at that price he loses. You get a check either way, weekly.

If the contractor loses, he took that risk. Noone held a gun to his head. Why isn't this considered contractor incompetance? If the contractor wins, the check he gets is substantially better than the weekly check of the non risk-taker, who also, by the way, invests a lot of time.

Contractors get to wait for draws and have to sweat to make payroll.

No contractor has to sweat to make payroll - only when the contractor is biting off more than he can chew, again, a choice the contractor made in exchange for the reward.

After everybody else gets paid then the contractor gets paid.

That is the responsibility of any employer or business. DO you think it should be the other way around? Because many of your ilk belive so.

Contractors are not standing shoulder to shoulder against you, they need you. Since they cannot threaten you with death they have to offer you money.

Poor you...

And you're wrong, contractors are standing shoulder to shoulder against the employees - because you all compete to be the lowest bidder. As such, your goal, since you all have pretty much the same operating costs and the material costs the same, is to win by having the lowest paid, most productive workforce. It's one of the few costs you can control, and what with labor accounting for 60-70% of a job... that's where all the looking is done to cut corners.

More than once I have loaned my company money form my personal savings to pay the employees.

Because your company was short... where did you get the money to loan, and, maybe your draws are a bit unrealistic given you cannot make payroll?

Technical workers are hard to find, and sometimes even harder to motivate.

Originally Posted by LawnGuyLandSparky

Originally Posted by LJSMITH1

I am not one to get embroiled in one of these discussions, but let's take a higher level view of whats going on....

retired 7373: Do you or your wife shop for the lowest price around for things that you purchase with your hard-earned money? (i.e. at your local supermarket, your local retail shops, etc.) How about when buying a new car? An new home? A new computer? Be honest.

I will bet that you AND your entire family shop around looking for the lowest price on anything that is consumed. It is that VERY capitalistic action that is driving the price that someone is willing to pay for your services and/or products. If the supply is small, the price goes up.

I am willing to bet that you will not pay 20% more for a car from a dealer just so you can feel good about contributing to the mechanics pension fund, or medical care plan. In fact, you are contributing to the very same pressures that are putting unionized and non-unionized folks out on the street collecting unemployment. We all are contributing. Heck, why is there even bidding on projects? Just take the first price offered and be done with it.

The customer demand entitles us to work, and not the other way around. If the customer doesn't want to pay what you feel you are worth, they won't hire you. They may not hire anyone. It's their choice.

In order for any company to survive in a capitalist society (we are still capitalist, right?), they must provide a product or service for a price that a customer is willing to pay (assuming supply and demand are equal). That's the way it works - there really are no exceptions. The company makes a profit, and they get to stay in business and, most importantly - grow -hire more people - and help raise the standard of living. There will always be people that are willing to try to cheat the system - on both sides of the workforce. White collar folks do not feel anymore entitled than blue-collar folks. There are folks that steal in the union and in corporate America.

No company has to provide services for a price a customer is willing to pay. The customer can take a flying leap. Especially when the customer feels that while everyone else is, they don't feel the need to pay to maintain the existing standards.


All the price shopping does is drive prices downward. This starts a chain reaction...the distributor/supplier shops around, causing the manufacturer to lower prices - somehow. Typically the cost of labor in the US is the highest component. If the manufacturer can't lower prices domestically...guess what? They move operations overseas, where the standard of living is much lower. This is why China has become the 'go-to' place for much of the world's manufacturing labor. Don't worry, China will eventually become too expensive (just like Taiwan and Japan are now), and the manufacturers will find other parts of the globe to set up shop. It will never end until the standard of living around the world stabilizes at a certain level.

How can you call this capatilism when a source is going to foreign lands to exploit people? Are those people also part of the capatilist game? No - there is the key. Capatilism now is redefined as including others NOT within the capatilist system. This isn't a system - it's cheating the system.

Some unionized folks have a sense of entitlement that goes beyond a "fair and reasonable" view of value. The customer determines actual value, not the other way around. In many cases, this is why many "sanitation engineers" (i.e. garbage men) are making more money than a 1st grade teacher. We as a society have placed a higher value on getting rid of garbage, than in the molding our children's minds. Let's face it, the customer could care less about your pension, IRA, medical care, or you and your family. They are more concerned about their pension, IRA, medical care and their families.

Ahhh so greed is good...

Sanitation workers do a dirty job, and will die before they reach 70. Teachers OTOH will like into their 80's and beyond. Teachers work 1/2 a year at what is basically a part time job. Were capitalism to reign supreme in this respect, teachers (who demand parity with the private sector given their level of education investment) forget to price themselves DOWN due to working only 182 days a year (compared to a business school grad who will work 240 days a year) having summers and every school holiday and vacation off, (typically there are only 10 normal business holidays) and eventuallly end up with tenure.

As an Engineer, I am baffled at how peers of mine who help manage Hedge Funds make 1000% more salary than I do. What about pro-athletes? (don't get me started!) I feel I have more complicated knowledge, skill, education, and a more difficult job - thus I should have more perceived value. Somehow, the market doesn't agree. So be it. I am happy with what I have been able to accomplish so far. I am happy with what I have been able to do because I fully understand how capitalism works.

IMO the brotherhood mentality about looking at fellow non-union electricians as people who are 'taking food away' from their families is complete silliness (and borderline socialist). In my view, most of these fellow, non-union electricians are patriotic AMERICANS, and are entitled to anything that they can earn - even if they are willing to work without benefits or higher wages. Does that mean that they are bad people? NO! They are doing the same thing as you are - putting food on the table for themselves and their families. Why should they have to be part of a socialized labor cartel to earn a living?

How do you equate union with cartel? Cartels commit crimes and are illegal. Forming groups is permitted in the constitution - the freedom of association. Would you call a church a cartel? How about the American Association of Engineers? The VFW? The K of C?

It is their own free will, and unions should respect that, not punish or ridicule those who choose not to participate in the 'club'.

Please do not take this as being disrespectful, as I have no intention of being so.

Originally Posted by LawnGuyLandSparky

(Oldman)
Actually, many who berate were once members and are now contractors.

Problem with unions is that many are anti contractor.

Labor and management have opposing goals.

And the union bosses thrive on keeping the labor-management relationship as adversarial as possible.

Read: "don't have to back down."

In good open shops you'll find more of a 2 way street.

Yes, both of them.

Just an observation.

Originally Posted by Power Tech

Oh go mow a lawn---Dude---LSparky.

Your statements show you have no idea what the hell your talking about.

Originally Posted by Power Tech

Go into business. Then after a couple of years look at your statements.

Then you will see you were full of ****.

Originally Posted by LawnGuyLandSparky

Which must be why you took the time to quote and debate my entire rebuttal...

Typical rat - always doing a 1/2 assed job.