unionize! - Page 9 - Electrician Talk - Professional Electrical Contractors Forum

RIVETER · 11-03-2009, 11:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brian john

If and when I fold the men can take their bennies with them and not have to worry about losing anything.

When I first went in business many of my customers wanted union contractors now they could care less if a contractor is union or not.

I am hoping that you do not "FOLD". Are you close to that? If so , let a few of us know..there is an outside chance that we can help.

brian john · 11-04-2009, 12:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RIVETER

I am hoping that you do not "FOLD". Are you close to that? If so , let a few of us know..there is an outside chance that we can help.

I have been in business 24 years and doing OK at this time. But one never knows could get hit by a bus tomorrow.

Power Tech · 11-14-2009, 09:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by westernexplorer

Knowshorts,
I don't disagree with what you have said. I agree that we should reward work. I also, understand the difference between an employer and an employee. I don't even blame employers for fighting for there positions or what they believe in. However, alot of employer's want it to be one-sided. It's ok for them to ban together, just not the workers. Would you say that is not true....? Would you say that most employers, if given the chance would over turn many labor laws in America...?

You said it, "employers". I do not have a factory with 1000's of workers. I am in the ditch and on the lift with them. I know what you are saying about big business and factory labor. Contractors are so regulated that if they do break the law it will be just a mater of time before it catches up with them.

Come on, the only thing I can discriminate against is smoking and tattoos.

I think the workers of the US are far more organized than businessmen.

I do not think you comprehend at all the difference between being a contractor and an employee. A contractor has more rules to follow when it comes to the employee, than the employee has with the contractor.

The laws are geared for the employee.

The contractor RISKS his money and time gambling that he can do the job for a stated price. If it don't come in at that price he loses. You get a check either way, weekly.

Contractors get to wait for draws and have to sweat to make payroll.

After everybody else gets paid then the contractor gets paid.

Contractors are not standing shoulder to shoulder against you, they need you. Since they cannot threaten you with death they have to offer you money.

More than once I have loaned my company money form my personal savings to pay the employees.

Technical workers are hard to find, and sometimes even harder to motivate.

electricnewf · 11-18-2009, 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toronto Sparky

I truly believe the skilled trades in North America are being underrated.
We are the best in the world..

I agree with that as well!

But unlike North America, Europe doesn't have capitalist bastards that are in control of EVERYTHING. In Newfoundland the minimum wage is $9.75/hour, and most non-union shops will abide by that wage and pay no more. Some Journeyman are getting paid $12/hour, because the employer can get away with it, and this person is taking the beating just to feed his family.

Some contractors truly deserve the middle finger.

oldman · 11-18-2009, 11:58 AM

Hey Newfie, power to the people. Holy christ, you are a lost soul.

electricnewf · 11-18-2009, 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oldman

Hey Newfie, power to the people. Holy christ, you are a lost soul.

What do you mean by that?

traveler · 11-18-2009, 01:22 PM

Union is the best for one main reason.

When you are being wronged, someone has your back.

Contrary to what the anti-union guys on here will tell you.....there IS strength in numbers.

Keep in mind this is mainly a non-union/anti-union site. Every time you ask anything about the union, most of the "self identified rats" complete with the rat avatars will come running over here chiming in with what they "know are the facts" about the IBEW. Hell, I have already been called a Nazi for being in the union.

Go union. The apprenticeship is hell....but all the training is worth college credits, and you can easily springboard to a BS in E.E. if you so choose right after graduation.

~Joe

John Valdes · 11-18-2009, 02:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by traveler

Union is the best for one main reason.

When you are being wronged, someone has your back.

Contrary to what the anti-union guys on here will tell you.....there IS strength in numbers.

Keep in mind this is mainly a non-union/anti-union site. Every time you ask anything about the union, most of the "self identified rats" complete with the rat avatars will come running over here chiming in with what they "know are the facts" about the IBEW. Hell, I have already been called a Nazi for being in the union.

Go union. The apprenticeship is hell....but all the training is worth college credits, and you can easily springboard to a BS in E.E. if you so choose right after graduation.

~Joe

I have worked both. And I have to agree with you. Given the chance, I would take a union job over a non-union job any day.
Keep in mind. It's been over 20 years since I had a ticket. I really do believe the ones that berate the union have never been a member. Once you have been a member nothing compares. And believe me, I have been comparing for many years. More years than I want to remember.

oldman · 11-18-2009, 02:49 PM

Actually, many who berate were once members and are now contractors.

Problem with unions is that many are anti contractor.

And the union bosses thrive on keeping the labor-management relationship as adversarial as possible.

In good open shops you'll find more of a 2 way street.

Just an observation.

running dummy · 11-18-2009, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by traveler

Union is the best for one main reason.

When you are being wronged, someone has your back.

Contrary to what the anti-union guys on here will tell you.....there IS strength in numbers.

Keep in mind this is mainly a non-union/anti-union site. Every time you ask anything about the union, most of the "self identified rats" complete with the rat avatars will come running over here chiming in with what they "know are the facts" about the IBEW. Hell, I have already been called a Nazi for being in the union.

Go union. The apprenticeship is hell....but all the training is worth college credits, and you can easily springboard to a BS in E.E. if you so choose right after graduation.

~Joe

That right there is HUGE!! I am in the process of fulfilling the credit hours for my Associates which I will hopefully add on to get a Bachelors. I was already given 53 credit hours towards my Associates by completing the apprenticeship.

Thomps · 11-18-2009, 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Valdes

I have worked both. And I have to agree with you. Given the chance, I would take a union job over a non-union job any day.
Keep in mind. It's been over 20 years since I had a ticket. I really do believe the ones that berate the union have never been a member. Once you have been a member nothing compares. And believe me, I have been comparing for many years. More years than I want to remember.

But you have to remember that there are a lot of people out there who feel that the union, or a unionized environment isn't in their best interest, and that doesn't make them wrong.

That is one of the key points that people have to remember, that there are benefits and limitation on both sides. If someone is planning their career path, only they can decide which is going to provide them with the opportunties they need to earn a living and achieve their goals.

It becomes frustrating, when someone who has opted to work in a merit/open shop workplace tells a pro-union peron about their decision, they are branded as stupid, or a scab or mis-informed.

traveler · 11-18-2009, 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomps

But you have to remember that there are a lot of people out there who feel that the union, or a unionized environment isn't in their best interest, and that doesn't make them wrong.

That is one of the key points that people have to remember, that there are benefits and limitation on both sides. If someone is planning their career path, only they can decide which is going to provide them with the opportunties they need to earn a living and achieve their goals.

It becomes frustrating, when someone who has opted to work in a merit/open shop workplace tells a pro-union peron about their decision, they are branded as stupid, or a scab or mis-informed.

I agree.

~Joe

miller_elex · 11-18-2009, 04:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Power Tech

Contractors are so regulated that if they do break the law it will be just a mater of time before it catches up with them.

You mean the immigration laws, right? Every trade but MEP is guilty here, some places even MEP is a lost cause.

I think the workers of the US are far more organized than businessmen.

More organized? That's what owners like to tell the ill-informed who know not better to perpetuate the illusion. More organized than the Chamber of Commerce? The AGC, the ABC? The NECA? Give me a break.

I do not think you comprehend at all the difference between being a contractor and an employee. A contractor has more rules to follow when it comes to the employee, than the employee has with the contractor.

You are much smarter than an employee, and with much less conscience.

I do understand the difference between a contractor and an employee. That's why I am an employee. We need less contractors and more employees. Every other employee out there that thinks he is worth two sh1ts rolls the dice taking up contracting. Now we got a bazillion contractors chasing the same dollar coming up nickels.

The laws are geared for the employee.

The contractor RISKS his money and time gambling that he can do the job for a stated price. If it don't come in at that price he loses. You get a check either way, weekly.

I've got no problem with you losing your house because you stuck your neck out in the business world. Happened to my old man when I was a kid. Lost everything. You could probably make more dough as a PM at a large contractor.

Contractors get to wait for draws and have to sweat to make payroll.

After everybody else gets paid then the contractor gets paid.

How many times have I heard this sob story being asked to give back, to find out later the job made money.

Contractors are not standing shoulder to shoulder against you, they need you. Since they cannot threaten you with death they have to offer you money.

This I like. But the jackasses among us hang out their own shingle.

Nothing against specialty guys like B.John, just the Div 16 small-jobbers.

More than once I have loaned my company money form my personal savings to pay the employees.

Technical workers are hard to find, and sometimes even harder to motivate.

You are probably a great guy to work for, but that's the exception.

e57 · 11-18-2009, 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by miller_elex

More organized? That's what owners like to tell the ill-informed who know not better to perpetuate the illusion. More organized than the Chamber of Commerce? The AGC, the ABC? The NECA? Give me a break.

You do know that the NECA and IBEW are basically one in the same? Right.... Despite what they tell you.... Ask down at the hall about the LMCC...

bward76 · 11-18-2009, 06:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by e57

You do know that the NECA and IBEW are basically one in the same? Right.... Despite what they tell you.... Ask down at the hall about the LMCC...

Wrong!!! Two completly seperate organizations with a contract between the two. I need to roll up my pants, it's getting a little deep.

JayH · 11-18-2009, 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by e57

You do know that the NECA and IBEW are basically one in the same? Right.... Despite what they tell you.... Ask down at the hall about the LMCC...

NECA and IBEW are not the same organization.

There are plenty of signatory contractors that are not affiliated with NECA.

RIVETER · 11-18-2009, 08:31 PM

This is a very touchy subject, as we all know. I don't consider myself a better electrician because I am union. In some cases I think that I care more about the trade than others. I speak up when I see others doing something that I know not to be right. Has anyone worked on a metal stud building ...and has seen someone use two screws to fasten a box to the metal stud? That is just one instance of something that you know is incorrect, and you can bring it up in an UNION enviornment and not be afraid to lose your job.
I am not disparaging any non-union people out there because I know that if you did not care about your work, you most likely would not get into a forum such as this.
I will never say anything bad about a person who is doing the best that he/she can for their family.

t

william1978 · 11-18-2009, 08:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oldman

Actually, many who berate were once members and are now contractors.

Problem with unions is that many are anti contractor.

And the union bosses thrive on keeping the labor-management relationship as adversarial as possible.

In good open shops you'll find more of a 2 way street.

Just an observation.

Well said.

knowshorts · 11-18-2009, 08:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RIVETER

Has anyone worked on a metal stud building ...and has seen someone use two screws to fasten a box to the metal stud?

I've got to ask. How many screws is the proper amount? If the job is emt and bracket boxes, I use 2 tec screws. If it is mc and bracket boxes, I use 3 tec screws.

More often than not I find myself using slide brackets in which case I only need 2 screws to mount the box to the bracket.

JayH · 11-18-2009, 09:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by knowshorts

I've got to ask. How many screws is the proper amount? If the job is emt and bracket boxes, I use 2 tec screws. If it is mc and bracket boxes, I use 3 tec screws.

More often than not I find myself using slide brackets in which case I only need 2 screws to mount the box to the bracket.

The proper amont needed is securely attached.