Allen-Bradley - Electrician Talk - Professional Electrical Contractors Forum

Mountain Electrician · 01-12-2009, 06:30 AM

Anyone else get frustrated as h-e-double hockey sticks with AB? Great products, but they can be overly complicated and a bit stingy with their PLC tech info. If you don't have a service agreement, forget it!!

Example: Emergency call-out for a fuse problem w/ a ControlLogix 1756 OA16 output card. I'm about 45 min away, so we start troubleshooting on the phone. The current problem (they've been working on this for 3 hours before they called me, so who knows what the original problem is) is the fuse light on the card is lit. The mill electrician has already called the equipment's OEM tech support and they said there is no fuse, just reset the module and go. Didn't work. WTF??!! I point out that if there was no fuse, there would be no fuse light. DUHHH!!

Anyway, I tell him to pull the card and check the fuse.

By the time I get on site, they are taking the card apart and we find a blown fuse. I check each individual output for shorts or grounds, everythings okay. The outputs consist of solenoid valves, 1 per. Each output is w/ a 2 A fast blow glass fuse, and the output cards fuse is a 3 A slow blow. I force each output on individually, no problem. Turns out a program glitch (the machine is less than a year old, and they hadn't had this exact set of circumstances yet) is trying to operate up and down solenoids at the same time, and that's what blew the fuse.

Here's my b*tch...while I've got the mill electrician verifing field wiring, etc. I go online to AB's web site to check their knowledgebase. After 10 min of navigating, I finally find a forum with a thread topic similar to my problem, and guess what...it's locked, and you can only access it with a tech support agreement!

As expensive as this stuff is, you'd think they would be less stingy with the info. I've never had this problem with their drives support, in fact just the opposite. Wonder what's the deal?

TheRick · 01-12-2009, 07:53 AM

Our Automation Engineer actually worked as a Field Technician for AB for years, and he still has connections inside so we don't have that problem anymore!

Our last Automation Engineer had no such connections...the most common pasword he used....ABSUCKS.

No relays on your outputs? I realize they are only solenoids, and fused, but we use dry contacts for every output.

Kletis · 01-12-2009, 11:19 AM

I have had a lot of similar issues with Allen Bradley. The saying around here is, "you can buy better but you can't buy more expensive!!" I really like their product, but sometimes they are glichy as hell and it is hard to figure out why!! Their knowledgebase and tech support can be very helpful at times, but sometimes it is just a waste of time!! One of our reps has a plc guru that knows a lot and has connections to get any answers he does not know. He has bailed me out a couple of times!!

MDShunk · 01-12-2009, 06:12 PM

My number 1 rule for PLC outputs... don't control ANYTHING directly.

Have a nice day.

Mountain Electrician · 01-12-2009, 06:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MDShunk

My number 1 rule for PLC outputs... don't control ANYTHING directly.

Have a nice day.

A good rule, and one I follow when I design something myself. This control system, like many I work with, was designed and the cabinet wired by the OEM. I received the cabinet, installed it and wired the field devices as per the OEM drawings. A good piece of equipment and a decent control system but this particular set up is an Achilles Heel for sure.

At the same time, I've had problems with relays for outputs, especially Finders.

These are okay:
http://www.huandong.com.cn/pdf/200612/G7.PDF

iaov · 01-12-2009, 06:58 PM

When it comes to screwing thier customers AB is almost as good as HD!!

p_logix · 01-12-2009, 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mountain Electrician

Anyone else get frustrated as h-e-double hockey sticks with AB? Great products, but they can be overly complicated and a bit stingy with their PLC tech info. If you don't have a service agreement, forget it!!

Example: Emergency call-out for a fuse problem w/ a ControlLogix 1756 OA16 output card. I'm about 45 min away, so we start troubleshooting on the phone. The current problem (they've been working on this for 3 hours before they called me, so who knows what the original problem is) is the fuse light on the card is lit. The mill electrician has already called the equipment's OEM tech support and they said there is no fuse, just reset the module and go. Didn't work. WTF??!! I point out that if there was no fuse, there would be no fuse light. DUHHH!!

Anyway, I tell him to pull the card and check the fuse.

That card 1756 OA16 output card does not have a "E" at the end. If it had a "E" at the end of the part # it would be electronically fused and these modules have internal electronic fusing to prevent too much current from flowing through the module. I think thats what that tech support thought when he said just reset the card if you didnt have a short or ground what a idiot.

Thats why I don't rely on any of those of those AB or other tech support lines when troubleshooting.

Quote:

they've been working on this for 3 hours before they called me, so who knows what the original problem is) is the fuse light on the card is lit.

3 hours of down time for a blown fuse though thats a tough one to justify the down time. Its a wonder how that place runs.

AS far as AB products It seems as if we are always flashing Ethernet I/P cards, upgrading RS 5000 to the latest versions it never stops. I can understand your fustrations, but at the same time I kind of enjoy all the extra work!

Mountain Electrician · 01-13-2009, 06:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by p_logix

That card 1756 OA16 output card does not have a "E" at the end. If it had a "E" at the end of the part # it would be electronically fused and these modules have internal electronic fusing to prevent too much current from flowing through the module. I think thats what that tech support thought when he said just reset the card if you didnt have a short or ground what a idiot.

Thats why I don't rely on any of those of those AB or other tech support lines when troubleshooting.

3 hours of down time for a blown fuse though thats a tough one to justify the down time. Its a wonder how that place runs.

AS far as AB products It seems as if we are always flashing Ethernet I/P cards, upgrading RS 5000 to the latest versions it never stops. I can understand your fustrations, but at the same time I kind of enjoy all the extra work!

That makes sense about the electronic fusing, I hadn't run across one of those before with an E on the end of the part number. Part of the problem with the OEM tech support is a language barrier. This equipment comes from Quebec, and sometimes the tech support folks can be a little spotty with the whole English thing. Factor in the mill electrician being basically a light bulb and motor changer, and it's not a big surprise it took them 3 hours to find a blown fuse.

It turns out this time the program was broken, in inasmuch as when the operator tried to manually force a bidirectional solenoid valve up from the HMI, it activated both the up and down outputs simultaneously causing the valve to try to go both directions at once and blowing the card fuse. Got the OEM to do some reprogramming under warranty and problem fixed.

As far as AB allowing us to learn more and work on interesting problems due to the overcomplexity of their equipment, if I worked full time as a plant or mill tech, I would agree. I like a challenge. But all I do are projects and emergency call-in's. I just need to fix it as fast as possible and get on to the next job.

InControl · 01-16-2009, 08:50 PM

I used to complain about AB/Rockwell. Now, when I go to troubleshoot and see an Allen Bradley PLC, I want to hug it!

See, the company I work for, many years ago, decided to standardize on Siemens' PLC's. At first, I was all for it. We received Step 7 and Microwin training and life was good. The machines weren't very complicated at the time, so the programming wasn't either. Back then, everything was written in ladder logic, so learning the differences between Step 7 and RSLogix wasn't all that difficult.

Fast forward about 6 years. Automation has advanced by leaps and bounds.

It seems that many Siemens programmers think that ladder logic is kindergarten programming. Now, many of our machines come written in STL (Statement list) only. If the program was written in STL, most of the time, it can not be translated into ladder. On top of that, some machines are from Germany, so the comments are in German!

Here is an example of the same rung written in STL and ladder:

As you can see, Step 7 is no fun trying to troubleshoot when it is written in STL. Thats just basic Boolean too, never mind the temp values, arrays, and advanced stuff.

I'll never complain about AB/Rockwell again!

p_logix · 01-16-2009, 09:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by InControl

I used to complain about AB/Rockwell. Now, when I go to troubleshoot and see an Allen Bradley PLC, I want to hug it!

See, the company I work for, many years ago, decided to standardize on Siemens' PLC's. At first, I was all for it. We received Step 7 and Microwin training and life was good. The machines weren't very complicated at the time, so the programming wasn't either. Back then, everything was written in ladder logic, so learning the differences between Step 7 and RSLogix wasn't all that difficult.

Fast forward about 6 years. Automation has advanced by leaps and bounds.

It seems that many Siemens programmers think that ladder logic is kindergarten programming. Now, many of our machines come written in STL (Statement list) only. If the program was written in STL, most of the time, it can not be translated into ladder. On top of that, some machines are from Germany, so the comments are in German!

Here is an example of the same rung written in STL and ladder:

As you can see, Step 7 is no fun trying to troubleshoot when it is written in STL. Thats just basic Boolean too, never mind the temp values, arrays, and advanced stuff.

I'll never complain about AB/Rockwell again!

Well, as an "Electrician" I do Like A ladder logic PLC program.

I'll tell you though ControlLogix RS5000 software can be prorgammed in your normal Ladder Logic, structured text, Function Block, SFC's (function charts). It depends on the programmer and your company standards. Most PLCs have more then one method of programming. RS5000 does not use I/O addressing but rather tags and arrays. Now the programmer can call a INPUT what ever he wants. It also use Produced and consumed tags for message interlocking between Ethernet communications, And system variables such as GSVs and SSV.

We do have Function Block programming for recipe programs, Ladder logic programs for fillers with descriptions written by german programmers. And check this out They program 1 (OTL) that have about 20 (OTU) in the program. Now if your latch is dropping out you might have to program 20 temp (OTL) just to catch it while your troubleshooting. This programming came from the Germany manufacturer and they also do stuff like nest like 20 rungs within 1 rung. And a lot of the prints are written in german.

p_logix · 01-17-2009, 09:46 PM

Quote:

I used to complain about AB/Rockwell. Now, when I go to troubleshoot and see an Allen Bradley PLC, I want to hug it!

Me Too!

John Valdes · 02-10-2009, 01:54 PM

I don't like AB. Try to get a drawing from them if your not a class 1 service center.
I do like there PLC's alot. But not much else.

3phase · 02-27-2009, 12:00 PM

I can identify with the problem of comments being in German. We have one type of machine that is German and the prints were in German, my 2 yrs in high school got me just enough to be dangerous in the language. We also have a machine made in Finland. We had the parts lists in English on the computer but someone tried to copy it to the mainframe and now most of it is only in Finnish.

InControl · 02-27-2009, 08:37 PM

Its actually kind of entertaining. We have German engineers come to our plant to work on THERE machines, which WE know better! Go figure. The German guys are great to hang out with, I love hearing about different cultures and there way of life. They make fun of our 'weak' American beer.

p_logix · 02-27-2009, 10:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by InControl

Its actually kind of entertaining. We have German engineers come to our plant to work on THERE machines, which WE know better! Go figure. The German guys are great to hang out with, I love hearing about different cultures and there way of life. They make fun of our 'weak' American beer.

Ha ha! The 'weak' American beer. So you've worked on Krones machines, fillers, labelers etc...Or Kisters packers?

InControl · 03-04-2009, 05:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by p_logix

Ha ha! The 'weak' American beer. So you've worked on Krones machines, fillers, labelers etc...Or Kisters packers?

Its a palletizer.

cookie · 04-09-2009, 03:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mountain Electrician

...As expensive as this stuff is, you'd think they would be less stingy with the info. I've never had this problem with their drives support, in fact just the opposite. Wonder what's the deal?

I understand your frustration. I have to pay several thousand dollars per year for an A-B support contract. I say "have to" because otherwise I can't download the software and firmware updates.

As they say about Allen-Bradley, "You can buy better, but you can't pay more!"

PLCMentor.com · 04-15-2009, 04:39 PM

Mountain: You may want to check your terminations to the solenoids. It sounds like they have been installed without any surge protection. I think I saw an AC output card so some type of RC circuit or an MOV really needs to be at the device. You are lucky the Logix fuses its outputs. If you had a SLC you would have been purchasing a new card!

MDShunk: There is no problem controlling devices directly with an OA card; however, the rest of the circuit does have to be designed properly. It gets real expensive to add interposing relays on every output.

InControl: Dont even get me started on German programming. Statment list is all they do.

Russell

randomkiller · 04-15-2009, 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PLCMentor.com

MDShunk: There is no problem controlling devices directly with an OA card; however, the rest of the circuit does have to be designed properly. It gets real expensive to add interposing relays on every output.

Russell

But in the long run isn't it cheaper to replace a burned relay than the OA card?
We always us a isolating relay.

PLCMentor.com · 04-15-2009, 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by randomkiller

But in the long run isn't it cheaper to replace a burned relay than the OA card?
We always us a isolating relay.

Sure it is - assuming you are going to burn something. Proper fusing and design also works. We never use an isolating relay - unless it is required (ie, 120VAC card driving 24VDC coil). Never been a problem IF the rest of the design is done properly. I have clients that were burning outputs right and left until I pointed out how the system was installed improperly. After proper surge devices and fusing, all is well.

Russell