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Old 04-12-2017, 10:47 PM   #1
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Default Allen Bradley PF 4 w/ timer relay etc..

Newest lab in class is using Power Flex 4 and connecting them to each other's panels.

This is what needs to be done/drawn up.

First panel is the start, stop, and latch.

When you press start on the first panel, "A" 120v light bulb lamp will come on and AB runs motor forward for 4 seconds and then off.
Then to the next panel and the same cycle continues automatically and so on through everyone's panel/board.
When the last panel gets done with the cycle it all shuts down.
We've only covered VFD as keypad control and external start stop. I have great understanding of Ice cube relays, motor timers, and electronic timers. We are using AB Powerflex 4 208 3 phase and PF4 switches to 24vdc. Just need to see what proper way would be to achieve this setup using relay/timer relays. Etc. If any other info is needed just ask. Thanks in advance!!
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Old 04-12-2017, 10:50 PM   #2
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Homework ?

Yuck !
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Old 04-12-2017, 10:50 PM   #3
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I don't have class again til Monday and I want to figure out or drive me nuts lol. We've done a bunch of other stuff but just getting more into the VFD's.
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Old 04-12-2017, 10:51 PM   #4
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Homework ?

Yuck !
Nah I'm just an over achiever lol and obsessive!
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Old 04-12-2017, 10:53 PM   #5
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I know it's simple just haven't gotten much seat time!
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Old 04-13-2017, 07:28 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by Mcswain View Post
Newest lab in class is using Power Flex 4 and connecting them to each other's panels.

This is what needs to be done/drawn up.

First panel is the start, stop, and latch.

When you press start on the first panel, "A" 120v light bulb lamp will come on and AB runs motor forward for 4 seconds and then off.
Then to the next panel and the same cycle continues automatically and so on through everyone's panel/board.
When the last panel gets done with the cycle it all shuts down.
We've only covered VFD as keypad control and external start stop. I have great understanding of Ice cube relays, motor timers, and electronic timers. We are using AB Powerflex 4 208 3 phase and PF4 switches to 24vdc. Just need to see what proper way would be to achieve this setup using relay/timer relays. Etc. If any other info is needed just ask. Thanks in advance!!
Does each station have its own indicator and start button? Does the indicator of each station have to stay on until the process is complete or just on showing that station is giving the run signal to the VFD?
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Old 04-13-2017, 09:39 AM   #7
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wow this is so 1990 , they should gives you small plc (or smart relays) to do that, hardware timer/relays logics is very outdated
some vfds also have inside logic blocks that could do that internally
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Old 04-13-2017, 09:52 AM   #8
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wow this is so 1990 , they should gives you small plc (or smart relays) to do that, hardware timer/relays logics is very outdated
some vfds also have inside logic blocks that could do that internally
This is just a building block to what they build up to I'm sure.
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Old 04-13-2017, 01:00 PM   #9
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Yes we build up to PLC's. We have done some Power Factor correction, Wye Start/Delta Run using contractors lots of stuff. Just the flavor we're in right now. Each station after the precious one completes will have the light and motor come on. The light being 120v. Then feeds Power to next panel.
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Old 04-13-2017, 01:09 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Mcswain View Post
Newest lab in class is using Power Flex 4 and connecting them to each other's panels.

This is what needs to be done/drawn up.

First panel is the start, stop, and latch.

When you press start on the first panel, "A" 120v light bulb lamp will come on and AB runs motor forward for 4 seconds and then off.
Then to the next panel and the same cycle continues automatically and so on through everyone's panel/board.
When the last panel gets done with the cycle it all shuts down.
We've only covered VFD as keypad control and external start stop. I have great understanding of Ice cube relays, motor timers, and electronic timers. We are using AB Powerflex 4 208 3 phase and PF4 switches to 24vdc. Just need to see what proper way would be to achieve this setup using relay/timer relays. Etc. If any other info is needed just ask. Thanks in advance!!
Does each station have its own indicator and start button? Does the indicator of each station have to stay on until the process is complete or just on showing that station is giving the run signal to the VFD?
The start button, latching and stop is on first panel only
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Old 04-13-2017, 02:00 PM   #11
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Is this a Union based course of study or a vocational, ABC school?
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Old 04-13-2017, 02:06 PM   #12
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Is this a Union based course of study or a vocational, ABC school?
Vicational
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Old 04-13-2017, 04:02 PM   #13
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Vicational
What's that? Victorian vocational school?

While it's true that "some drives" have that functionality built-in, the PF4 does not, and that may be the point of the exercise, the process of thinking about how that would work.

So think along these lines: a cascade. Create a sequence for Drive 1 that starts from a PB being pushed momentarily, runs for 4 seconds and stops. Then repeat that for each station down the line, but substitute the PB closure with a contact from the previous station that does the same initiation function as that PB.
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Old 04-14-2017, 10:41 PM   #14
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wow this is so 1990 , they should gives you small plc (or smart relays) to do that, hardware timer/relays logics is very outdated
some vfds also have inside logic blocks that could do that internally
There are, in fact, certain applications where hard-wired is still the way to go. Most modern safety circuits still have hard-wired components even if the safety relay is solid state.

There are also TONS of hardwired systems still in place that work just fine. It may be old technology but is pretty darn prevalent to this day.

I'm a PLC guy myself, but this school is training tech's, and as a tech you WILL run into hardwired circuits and you WILL need to troubleshoot them. They are quite a bit more difficult than most issues you run across on a PLC controlled system.

I would like to see pictures/videos of the system when complete, or an update of how it is going.
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Old 04-14-2017, 10:51 PM   #15
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No problem I will try to get a video and more info after we get it completed. We've done some pretty fun setups using 2 timer relays, 2 motor timers, forward and reverse motor contact or and 5 bulbs all doing different things for different amounts of times and either continuously recycling or stopping byself when completed.
We will have 400 hours of PLC in the future.
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Old 04-14-2017, 11:06 PM   #16
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There are, in fact, certain applications where hard-wired is still the way to go. Most modern safety circuits still have hard-wired components even if the safety relay is solid state.

There are also TONS of hardwired systems still in place that work just fine. It may be old technology but is pretty darn prevalent to this day.

I'm a PLC guy myself, but this school is training tech's, and as a tech you WILL run into hardwired circuits and you WILL need to troubleshoot them. They are quite a bit more difficult than most issues you run across on a PLC controlled system.

I would like to see pictures/videos of the system when complete, or an update of how it is going.
Some of us will still design and install hard-wired controls when a PLC just doesn't make sense.........
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Old 04-15-2017, 11:58 AM   #17
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Some of us will still design and install hard-wired controls when a PLC just doesn't make sense.........
I have seen some very simple tasks where people throw a PLC at it because they throw a PLC at everything. If it's a simple thing, and it might be doable with relay logic without turning into a real tangle, I kind of run it out both ways and decide. Relays are cheap, reliable, non-proprietary, straightforward, the parts don't become unavailable in ten years, no code to maintain, not very susceptible to lightning damage. The PLC is more flexible and expandable, if there's a good chance that the simple task today will grow into more later, better just jump in and go PLC from the start.
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Old 04-16-2017, 05:54 AM   #18
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I have seen some very simple tasks where people throw a PLC at it because they throw a PLC at everything. If it's a simple thing, and it might be doable with relay logic without turning into a real tangle, I kind of run it out both ways and decide. Relays are cheap, reliable, non-proprietary, straightforward, the parts don't become unavailable in ten years, no code to maintain, not very susceptible to lightning damage. The PLC is more flexible and expandable, if there's a good chance that the simple task today will grow into more later, better just jump in and go PLC from the start.
You hit the nail on the head with this one. Personally, I like to think of sensors, relays, PLC's, HMI's, valves, blah blah blah as just tools in the automation world. Just like any other job, you use the right tool for the right job.
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Old 04-17-2017, 11:07 PM   #19
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O.K. Got the logic for it and wired up tonight. I will get a video when everyone gets there's done and we run it through.

Basically using a 120vac relay and a 24vdc relay and a motor timer. First panel utilizes start/stop/latch. Pin 11 goes to 8 of 120vac ice cube relay which feeds the PF through motor timer contact and also feeds 2nd ice cube relay which is 24vdc. When the 24vdc is activated it allows 120vac to activate motor timer contact connected to"A" lamp and the PF is operated through the timed contacts also for 4 seconds. Pin 4 of the PF is the neutral for the 24vdc relay. 1 and 2 pin are jumpers on PF. When the motor timer times out power is sent to the next panel through a set of motor contacts and the last panels last timer will be at the first panel before relay so it will automatically shut down.
Was very easy once started in it. Just not enough seat time with the VD and external relays and such. Pretty simple.
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Old 04-17-2017, 11:08 PM   #20
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Here's ladder logic
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Allen Bradley PF 4 w/ timer relay etc..-img_0740_1492484879946.jpg  

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