Customer needs 30 Hp 3 phase Specialty compressor system. - Electrician Talk - Professional Electrical Contractors Forum
CLICK HERE AND JOIN OUR COMMUNITY TODAY, IT'S FREE!
Go Back   Electrician Talk - Professional Electrical Contractors Forum > Electrical Trade Topics > PLCs, VFDs, Motors and Controls


Like Tree26Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-11-2017, 09:25 PM   #1
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Texas
Posts: 31
Rewards Points: 62
Default Customer needs 30 Hp 3 phase Specialty compressor system.

Ingersoll Rand 30-HP Tankless Rotary Screw Air Compressor (208V 3-Phase 125 PSI)

http://www.aircompressorsdirect.com/...or/p61630.html

model ingersoll rand: up6s 30 125

A customer needs this 3 phase 30 hp compressor, It has a built in Xe-70m Programmable Controller
•Easily monitor operation on-site or by remote access
•Built-in event logging helps maximize efficiency & motor life

We have a single phase 120/240v 200A system at the location. I am Curious If we can use a VFD or phase converter to create 3 phase power for this particular piece of equipment or will it conflict with the built in controller.

I do not know much about compressors , i am curious if we could find a similar single phase compressor ?

I need help selecting a VFD. Thank you for any help and suggestions!

Last edited by nownojin; 02-11-2017 at 09:32 PM.
nownojin is offline   Reply With Quote
Join Contractor Talk

Join the #1 Electrician Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

ElectricianTalk.com - Are you a Professional Electrical Contractor? If so we invite you to join our community and see what it has to offer. Our site is specifically designed for you and it's the leading place for electricians to meet online. No homeowners asking DIY questions. Just fellow tradesmen who enjoy talking about their business, their trade, and anything else that comes up. No matter what your specialty is you'll find that ElectricianTalk.com is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally free!

Join ElectricianTalk.com - Click Here JOIN FOR FREE


Warning: The topics covered on this site include activities in which there exists the potential for serious injury or death. ElectricianTalk.com DOES NOT guarantee the accuracy or completeness of any information contained on this site. Always use proper safety precaution and reference reliable outside sources before attempting any construction or remodeling task!

Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 02-11-2017, 10:00 PM   #2
Bilge Rat
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Fernley, Nevada (near Reno)
Posts: 4,916
Rewards Points: 488
Default

I wouldn't use a phase converter for this type of compressor. The reason being that the motors here are pretty 'high strung' meaning that they operate pretty close to their limits on normal POCO 3Ø power and any kind of phase converter will have too much voltage imbalance.

A VFD would work but you might not get the full 60HZ out of it for the reason stated above.

For 30HP, you'll need a 60HP VFD and make sure that it can operate on single phase. Most can, some cannot.

You might need to change a parameter in the VFD to allow for single phase operation.

The controls can be supplied with normal single phase power and the VFD will be controlled by the coil circuit of the mechanical starter. You'll need to substitute a relay for the existing starter since the VFD will most likely use 24DC for its start signal.

If the existing starter is Y-∆, it might be a bit tricky to keep the fancy electronic controller from faulting on a starter failure.

Also, depending on the configuration of the 200 amp service, getting a breaker big enough might be a problem.
micromind is online now   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to micromind For This Useful Post:
splatz (02-12-2017)
Old 02-11-2017, 10:02 PM   #3
Senior Member
 
Cl906um's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Upper Michigan
Posts: 1,542
Rewards Points: 1,048
Default

Are there other loads on this service? Kind of seems undersized to run that big of a motor load.
Cl906um is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2017, 10:02 PM   #4
Modérateur
 
frenchelectrican's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Philippines { for a while }
Posts: 5,785
Rewards Points: 630
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by nownojin View Post
Ingersoll Rand 30-HP Tankless Rotary Screw Air Compressor (208V 3-Phase 125 PSI)

http://www.aircompressorsdirect.com/...or/p61630.html

model ingersoll rand: up6s 30 125

A customer needs this 3 phase 30 hp compressor, It has a built in Xe-70m Programmable Controller
•Easily monitor operation on-site or by remote access
•Built-in event logging helps maximize efficiency & motor life

We have a single phase 120/240v 200A system at the location. I am Curious If we can use a VFD or phase converter to create 3 phase power for this particular piece of equipment or will it conflict with the built in controller.

I do not know much about compressors , i am curious if we could find a similar single phase compressor ?

I need help selecting a VFD. Thank you for any help and suggestions!

I wrote a underline one part .,,

Sorry to be a bearer of bad news the 200 amp single phase service will not really handle 30 HP compressor at all because I do not know what other load you have in the exsting building.

Check with POCO to see if you can get Three phase supply in that location otherwise hevey up to 400 or 600 amp single phase if the POCO allow it.

to run the VSD on single phase you will need to oversized the VSD at least 50% larger and not all the VSD units will not take single phase input at all.
__________________
Bleu est beau.
frenchelectrican is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2017, 10:05 PM   #5
Senior Member
 
Cl906um's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Upper Michigan
Posts: 1,542
Rewards Points: 1,048
Default

Is there three phase available?
Cl906um is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2017, 10:21 PM   #6
Senior Member
 
Cl906um's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Upper Michigan
Posts: 1,542
Rewards Points: 1,048
Default

For that big of load, I would want a 200 amp three phase service for startup.
Cl906um is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2017, 11:55 PM   #7
Modérateur
 
frenchelectrican's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Philippines { for a while }
Posts: 5,785
Rewards Points: 630
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cl906um View Post
For that big of load, I would want a 200 amp three phase service for startup.
It may get by with that if the number of start and stop per hour is low. but I belive 400 amp service may suit better for that size of compressor unit.

Some POCO may have limitation of HP on their transfomers so check it ahead of time and you will need at least 75KVA is barebone minuim size to start up.
telsa likes this.
__________________
Bleu est beau.
frenchelectrican is online now   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to frenchelectrican For This Useful Post:
telsa (02-12-2017)
Old 02-12-2017, 01:01 AM   #8
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Sacramento, California
Posts: 7,097
Rewards Points: 12,470
Default

Most Poco's have a 10hp limit for such monster start-up loads -- on single-phase Services.

The issue is the wicked voltage drop -- that infuriates the neighbors -- every time your motor kicks in.

The fact that you're using a VFD to generate 3-phase out of 1-phase does not eliminate this voltage sag issue.

The typical 1-phase distribution scheme is not wired for such start-ups.

The extreme example: our national atomic research labs with their bevetrons. They have specific deals that throttle back their induction loads... so that the master grid does not drop more than, say, 2%.

If they were to use "across-the-line" starters -- they'd crash the system -- for many states around. ( If such a critter could even be constructed. )
splatz likes this.

Last edited by telsa; 02-12-2017 at 01:03 AM.
telsa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2017, 01:12 AM   #9
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Indiana
Posts: 451
Rewards Points: 94
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by frenchelectrican View Post
It may get by with that if the number of start and stop per hour is low. but I belive 400 amp service may suit better for that size of compressor unit.

Some POCO may have limitation of HP on their transfomers so check it ahead of time and you will need at least 75KVA is barebone minuim size to start up.
I'd feel perfectly comfortable putting that on a 3ph 200 amp service. Assuming an inverse time circuit breaker or time delay fuses at the feeder. A SINGLE phase service...not so much.
To OP, it might be doable depending on the drive you get with some advanced programming. Honestly though if you are not well versed in drive and motor theory (in which case you wouldn't have to be asking) you will have to hire an expert to engineer and program your set up. 50 percent derating is not really enough except in situations where your motor is not going to rub at full load. A compressor at times will be running at full load. 40 percent is closer to an actual derating and at 40 percent you are Prolly hitting right at that 200amp mark. I'm thinking it's not worth the risk... if anything else is on that service forget it.

To Frenchelectrician, he mentioned it's a screw compressor. They run 100 percent of the time and utilize an unloading valve to regulate pressure. The start/stop cycle for them is typically once a day. The start stop cycle is so often ignored, its cool that you mentioned it.

Sent from my C6725 using Tapatalk
Flyingsod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2017, 02:29 AM   #10
Modérateur
 
frenchelectrican's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Philippines { for a while }
Posts: 5,785
Rewards Points: 630
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flyingsod View Post
I'd feel perfectly comfortable putting that on a 3ph 200 amp service. Assuming an inverse time circuit breaker or time delay fuses at the feeder. A SINGLE phase service...not so much.

True and I know with three phase 208 system it can take large as 30 HP without issue the bottom line is the POCO transformer size that can change a bit. if it was used in lateral services for sure no question asked 75 KVA is ready and common item .,, but overhead cans or pigs that is kinda toss up depending on what POCO do with their pigs .,, but yes they can sling up 75 KVA pigs
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flyingsod View Post
To OP, it might be doable depending on the drive you get with some advanced programming. Honestly though if you are not well versed in drive and motor theory (in which case you wouldn't have to be asking) you will have to hire an expert to engineer and program your set up. 50 percent derating is not really enough except in situations where your motor is not going to rub at full load. A compressor at times will be running at full load. 40 percent is closer to an actual derating and at 40 percent you are Prolly hitting right at that 200amp mark. I'm thinking it's not worth the risk... if anything else is on that service forget it.
I agree with him on this one and ya have to do the load demand caluation to see where ya standing on exsting loads plus add it up on compressor load and see where the number adds up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flyingsod View Post
To Frenchelectrician, he mentioned it's a screw compressor. They run 100 percent of the time and utilize an unloading valve to regulate pressure. The start/stop cycle for them is typically once a day. The start stop cycle is so often ignored, its cool that you mentioned it.
Yep no problem at all and I am aware of screw compressor type useally run most case

To OP ;

You may have to change over to three phase service but barebone minium is 200 amp 208 volt service or add a 200 amp 480 volt three phase service so you can add more machinery from this service. and keep the exsting single phase service if POCO allow it otherwise get a transfomer to downstep for single phase loads
__________________
Bleu est beau.
frenchelectrican is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2017, 07:12 AM   #11
Semper Fidelis
 
Suncoast Power's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 13,319
Rewards Points: 4,290
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by nownojin View Post
Ingersoll Rand 30-HP Tankless Rotary Screw Air Compressor (208V 3-Phase 125 PSI)

http://www.aircompressorsdirect.com/...or/p61630.html

model ingersoll rand: up6s 30 125

A customer needs this 3 phase 30 hp compressor, It has a built in Xe-70m Programmable Controller
•Easily monitor operation on-site or by remote access
•Built-in event logging helps maximize efficiency & motor life

We have a single phase 120/240v 200A system at the location. I am Curious If we can use a VFD or phase converter to create 3 phase power for this particular piece of equipment or will it conflict with the built in controller.

I do not know much about compressors , i am curious if we could find a similar single phase compressor ?

I need help selecting a VFD. Thank you for any help and suggestions!
If it were me, I would get hold of the compressor rep and let them know what your demand is and the power you have available. I know for a fact that you are not the only one with this problem.
On another note, a 30 Hp screw drive is a fancy piece of equipment.
If he bought it surplus and wants you to connect it, it's time to spend the money he saved on a heavy up.
Suncoast Power is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2017, 09:33 AM   #12
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Texas
Posts: 31
Rewards Points: 62
Default

Thank you everyone for the input. Basically the only load i know of is this 30 hp compressor. The customer is promising more equipment. I have requested specs several times. I am going to tell them to give me specs/nameplates of all current equipment and possible future equipment. So i can do a load calc and plan review and get the poco involved i have a feeling i need a 400-600 amp 3 phase system.
nownojin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2017, 11:00 AM   #13
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Canada
Posts: 98
Rewards Points: 18
Default

I installed a 10Hp screw compressor a few months ago and realized that it didn't start under load. Nameplate said 10Hp at 240v but I've never seen it draw over 35 amps. I'm not very familiar with screw compressors but I don't think they are high inertia like normal compressors.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Ty the electric guy is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Ty the electric guy For This Useful Post:
nownojin (02-12-2017)
Old 02-12-2017, 12:00 PM   #14
Semper Fidelis
 
Suncoast Power's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 13,319
Rewards Points: 4,290
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ty the electric guy View Post
I installed a 10Hp screw compressor a few months ago and realized that it didn't start under load. Nameplate said 10Hp at 240v but I've never seen it draw over 35 amps. I'm not very familiar with screw compressors but I don't think they are high inertia like normal compressors.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
That's about right for 10hp.
Put it on a 60, hope it doesn't draw 40.

Does the output go through a dryer?

I was thinking that the OP would need another 20 amps for that.
Suncoast Power is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2017, 12:46 PM   #15
Senior Member
 
Cl906um's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Upper Michigan
Posts: 1,542
Rewards Points: 1,048
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by frenchelectrican View Post
It may get by with that if the number of start and stop per hour is low. but I belive 400 amp service may suit better for that size of compressor unit.

Some POCO may have limitation of HP on their transfomers so check it ahead of time and you will need at least 75KVA is barebone minuim size to start up.
Thanks for the backup. I wouldn't consider that big of a load on single phase 240. Never got an answer if three phase were available. Too tight a budget it seems.
Cl906um is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2017, 12:49 PM   #16
Senior Member
 
Cl906um's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Upper Michigan
Posts: 1,542
Rewards Points: 1,048
Default

Even with a drive, you still have a hard time tricking startup current. It can be lowered but it does it by speed. Compressors have torque.
Cl906um is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2017, 03:53 PM   #17
Bilge Rat
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Fernley, Nevada (near Reno)
Posts: 4,916
Rewards Points: 488
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ty the electric guy View Post
I installed a 10Hp screw compressor a few months ago and realized that it didn't start under load. Nameplate said 10Hp at 240v but I've never seen it draw over 35 amps. I'm not very familiar with screw compressors but I don't think they are high inertia like normal compressors.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Every screw compressor I've ever installed starts unloaded. It there is pressure at the screw discharge, it'd turn backward, there'd be no oil and it'd seize up pretty quickly.

The vast majority of self-contained units I've hooked up use Y-∆ starting. This results in a starting current of roughly 1/3 of the normal starting current and a starting torque of roughly 1/3 or a bit less of normal starting torque.

Most of these units keep the compressor pump intake blocked off during starting then open it when the starter switches from Y to ∆.

A VFD will easily start a pump like this but it could take a bit of programming to get it in the run position.
micromind is online now   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to micromind For This Useful Post:
nownojin (02-12-2017)
Old 02-13-2017, 06:47 PM   #18
Senior Member
 
JRaef's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: SF Bay Area, California
Posts: 4,240
Rewards Points: 2,370
Default

You cannot use a VFD unless you completely separate the control circuits and the motor circuits, so that the VFD is ONLY feeding the motor. That would be trickey even for an experienced controls person plus it would likely void any warranty (if this is new). In addition I looked up the specs on it, this is a splash lube type system, so you may have issues on starting it with a VFD because you may need to get it to full speed very quickly. That might require even MORE over sizing of the drive. You really need to engage IR for help on this.
__________________
"If you don't know where you're going, then any direction will do." -- Lewis Carroll
JRaef is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to JRaef For This Useful Post:
nownojin (02-13-2017)
Old 02-13-2017, 11:02 PM   #19
Senior Member
 
Cl906um's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Upper Michigan
Posts: 1,542
Rewards Points: 1,048
Default

You may be able to get by cheaper by just putting in another service, like a grounded b delta that you could put right by the other one if three phase is available. Different type so usually you can have more than one on the same building.
Cl906um is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Cl906um For This Useful Post:
nownojin (02-13-2017)
Old 02-14-2017, 08:46 AM   #20
Semper Fidelis
 
Suncoast Power's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 13,319
Rewards Points: 4,290
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cl906um View Post
You may be able to get by cheaper by just putting in another service, like a grounded b delta that you could put right by the other one if three phase is available. Different type so usually you can have more than one on the same building.
That's all good if they have a second phase available.
Suncoast Power is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
3 Phase / 1 Phase question J91 Commercial Electrical Forum 16 10-23-2016 04:25 AM
2 Phase Elevator Edfish General Electrical Discussion 5 06-30-2016 09:07 PM
assertive customer Lep General Electrical Discussion 26 05-27-2016 06:55 PM
3 phase to single phase te12co2w PLCs, VFDs, Motors and Controls 62 03-14-2016 10:47 AM
Can be both a three or single phase motor just the cowboy General Electrical Discussion 2 01-21-2016 10:36 AM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:17 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.1
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2017 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2017 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Our Pro Sites Network
ContractorTalk.com | DrywallTalk.com | HVACSite.com | PaintTalk.com | PlumbingZone.com | RoofingTalk.com