Black4Truck

I would expect nothing less from a guy who:

Never does side job for cash

Never speeds

Pays all his taxes

220/221

You are misunderstanding. I know the general reason for law, not the specific reasons for every law. Laws are usually very general. They have to be. The more they have to encompass, they more wordy and open to interpetation they become. We all know that the NEC is a fine example of that.

Everyone at some point will violate the law according to their own standards. Everyone. It doesn't mean we shouldn't have laws and it doesn't mean we shouldn't follow the law.

You can't fault me simply on the basis that I violate a law if you do the same thing.


Classic. When you don't have a good answer, you say "nevermind". You know you violate the code on occaision. You know you use an unlisted product on occaision, but if you admit it, you have to concede that I am right . You can't say that your violation is any more professional than mine, can you?

Not my instructor. There was a guy named Mike something that used to post on the electrical message boards that claimed to have never viloated the code in any fashion. When pressed, he claimed to have never even violated the speed limit. When pressed further he claimed to have gone to the police station and confessed to speeding. He was obviously lying, don't ya think?

Experience isn't the only factor. If that was the case, you would have to follow my instruction because I have 10 years on you

Like every part of life you must make decisions based on input from many sources. If you put your trust in one source it leaves you vulnerable. If electricians wrote the NEC it would be a better guide. When too many engineers, lawyers and manufacturers that get involved the NEC gets murky.


Ok, ...two things.

1. You use this product (Al connectors) as intended. There are cases when you use a non listed product because you feel it's an acceptable solution.

2. Even if it's your home, the NEC still applies. The NEC is designed to protect the future owners of your home too.



Finally, To newguy Miguel, don't take internet discussion personally until someone calls you a douchebag or something. Remember, it's a
forum to discuss sometimes diffent points of view.

mikheil

again, there is no point in continuing with this because no matter what i say, you will continue to ignore the NEC code on the basis that you think you know better than the code... if you don't see this as unprofessional, then there is nothing else I can tell you.

you are already 'fossilized' in your beliefs and no one's going to change you.

BadSplice

He does make a point. Do you follow the letter of the law to the exact word? If you don't, then how do you choose what to follow and what not to follow? Do you use your judgement and experience to help decide?

I don't particularly agree with him in what he said he does in this thread. But he has a valid point since every single one of us here knowingly breaks the code and the law.

Bob Badger

I have not done a side job in years, I turn them away, not interested.

Oh I speed, don't know where you got the impression I do not.

And yes, for the last 15 or more years I have paid all my taxes.

__________________
Bob Badger
Electrical Construction and Maintenance
MA, RI, CT

Bob Badger

OK, following that line of reasoning rolling a right turn on red is the same as first degree murder.

__________________
Bob Badger
Electrical Construction and Maintenance
MA, RI, CT

Bob Badger

It's amazing to me that I am actually getting a hard time about advocating using the correct products to work with AL NM wiring, which is the wiring method with the worst overall history of safety. One of you actully compared an AL termination with taping a 6 AWG green? Yeah thats the same thing, that green tape starts lots of fires.

Where do AL problems start?

Usually at the terminations.

What am I advocating?

Making those terminations carefully and correctly.

Boy I must be some sort of real asshole.

Hey you all want to use regular wire nuts on your customers work thats none of my concern. Black4Truck asked how I would do it, I answered, you all can do whatever you want.

__________________
Bob Badger
Electrical Construction and Maintenance
MA, RI, CT

Shado

Bob...that was the reason why I asked how folks deal with the neutrals in multigang boxes. There may be 6-9 neutrals in there. Would you disturb that wirenut? how would you handle it? Just curious.

Seems to me the only way to deal with that instance is to simply get into it and splice a cu conductor in for no other reason, but to check condition and use a purple wirenut for compliance.

__________________
- Dave ........

"Beware of the Rat....he has no Master...he works how & where he wants...."

220/221

So....what you are saying (by not saying) is that you "ignore" the NEC in some cases but you are afraid to admit it?

If your arguement is strictly "it's against the law", then yes.

Even first degree murder can be justified.

Whaaaat? Did he really say that?

You walk in right after someone has broken into your house and butchered your entire family including your 3 beautiful young children. You see him standing there, unarmed, high as he can get, covered with blood. You get your handgun and he laughs at you, arms in a surrender position, saying "You can't shoot me, I am unarmed".

I know it's a stretch but i'm trying to make a point. Everything is open to interpetation. I would be guilty of murder when I emptied my weapon into his lifeless body but in my mind, it's OK.

Here's one that's less of a stretch. If our military shoots down a hijacked plane, they are executing a plan to kill innocent people (first degree murder).

In all aspects of life we must be able to make decisions based on all the information that is available. Sometimes it a good idea to violate the law. Most of the time it's not.

Bottom line: It is my opinion that a simple wirenutted connection poses no additional threat from AL wiring. This will be my opinion until it changes. It won't change simply because of hsyteria. It certainly won't change because a group of lawyers.

I would gladly take actual evidence into consideration. Pictures of burned connections on an internet site that sells AL wiring solutions aint gonna do it. I can post pics of burned up copper splice connections all day long.


I need a job

BadSplice

No, that's bull****, I never said anything like that.

I clearly explained that in the part of my post that you conveniently did not quote.

Is this why everyone picks on you??

BadSplice

So Mr. Perfect speeds. Do you weave in and out of traffic? Do you drive after 2 beers? 3 beers?

Since you admit that you break the law, where do you put the line? How far do you go to break the law? What broken law is "ok" in your opinion? And why is your decision better than someone else's?

220/221

Where do AL problems start?

At the same place copper connections fail

Usually at the terminations.




That's the same thing I am advocating.

Key word correctly. You are advocating making them using a listed method and trusting the listing agent to know the only correct way.


BTW, back in the 70's, the wire was listed (by the same agency) along with the wire nuts.

Black4Truck

I'm not trying to give you a hard time

I was only joking about the side jobs, speeding, and taxes

You really are a sensitive guy

mikheil

dude, seriously... whatever..

you speak words of wisdom... you are the master.. you are better than all those silly engineers and lawyers that created the useless NEC code.

NolaTigaBait

Pretty much.

InPhase277

There are plenty of examples where a guy in the field has had to engineer a solution to a particular problem that wasn't exactly Code compliant, yet was safe. What we can do is TRY to follow the Code the best we can, but we should recognize that it is NOT the gospel. Engineers and lawyers don't know d!ck about electrical work.

BadSplice

You are being extremely self righteous. You've been asked multiple times by multiple people, yet you refuse to answer. I'll give it a try, have you ever broken the code in any way?

If you have, why was it ok for you to do it, but not for him?

mikheil

oh i'm sure i have broken the code many times. do you think I'm a NEC guru and that I know its 1000 pages by heart??

besides, i haven't always had the knowledge and experience I have now. like you and everyone else, I once was a clueless electrician apprentice that didn't know sh.t and would make all kinds of stupid and dangerous mistakes.

but you are missing the point, everybody, including me, has broken the code more than once, and everybody (i hope) learns from their mistakes and tries to improve job after job. but what i find extremely unprofessional is for someone, knowingly, intentionally and/or even mallisciously to repeatedly bypass the rules just because in his mind, his job techniques are 'safe enough' for him and uses that as his day to day practice.

regular nuts for Al splicing were ok back in the 70's when we didn't know better! but the code evolves year after year for a reason.. and people's practice is supposed to evolve as well! if your practice is already fossilized and stuck back in the 70's, then what are you going to do....

Bob Badger

It was a crappy day.

__________________
Bob Badger
Electrical Construction and Maintenance
MA, RI, CT

Bob Badger

FNG, I have about 35,000 posts on electrical forums, you will not find one where I have ever said that I have never broken an NEC requirement.

But the heck with you, I am not going to feel bad because I feel that terminating AL should be done correctly with the products listed for doing so.

You want to hack and be proud of it who am I to stop you.

__________________
Bob Badger
Electrical Construction and Maintenance
MA, RI, CT