Hot Tub INspection Suprise - Electrician Talk - Professional Electrical Contractors Forum

Cletis · 04-13-2012, 08:34 AM

Ok. I'm walking out door now. Was on the way to meet inspector and he told me now on existing slabs when you set a hot tub the owner must build a woodend deck platform now around hot tub for him to pass. He said if it was an existing paver system you need to dig up and put a ring around it.

If this is code they never enforced it til just now. ?? Code or Not ??

I had to cancel inspection for now....

Fredman · 04-13-2012, 08:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cletis

Ok. I'm walking out door now. Was on the way to meet inspector and he told me now on existing slabs when you set a hot tub the owner must build a woodend deck platform now around hot tub for him to pass. He said if it was an existing paver system you need to dig up and put a ring around it.

If this is code they never enforced it til just now. ?? Code or Not ??

I had to cancel inspection for now....

He's on crack. Plain and simple.

HARRY304E · 04-13-2012, 08:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cletis

Ok. I'm walking out door now. Was on the way to meet inspector and he told me now on existing slabs when you set a hot tub the owner must build a woodend deck platform now around hot tub for him to pass. He said if it was an existing paver system you need to dig up and put a ring around it.

If this is code they never enforced it til just now. ?? Code or Not ??

I had to cancel inspection for now....

You should know the code before you call the inspector..

680.42 Outdoor Installations. A spa or hot tub installed outdoors
shall comply with the provisions of Parts I and II of this
article, except as permitted in 680.42(A) and (B), that would
otherwise apply to pools installed outdoors.

Amish Electrician · 04-13-2012, 10:05 AM

The latest NEC calls for an equipontential grid around the tub .. BUT ... the NFPA has issues an ammendment that removes this requirement for such installations. Here it is:

NFPA 70®
National Electrical Code®
2011 Edition
Reference: 680.42(B)
TIA 11-1
(SC 11-3-10/TIA Log #1005)
Pursuant to Section 5 of the NFPA Regulations Governing Committee Projects, the National Fire Protection Association has issued
the following Tentative Interim Amendment to NFPA 70®, National Electrical Code®, 2011 edition. The TIA was processed by Panel
17 and the National Electrical Code Technical Correlating Committee, and was issued by the Standards Council on March 1, 2011,
with an effective date of March 21, 2011.

A Tentative Interim Amendment is tentative because it has not been processed through the entire standards-making procedures. It is
interim because it is effective only between editions of the standard. A TIA automatically becomes a proposal of the proponent for the
next edition of the standard; as such, it then is subject to all of the procedures of the standards-making process.

1. Revise 680.42(B) to read as follows:
680.42(B) Bonding. Bonding by metal-to-metal mounting on a common frame or base shall be permitted.
Exception No. 1: The metal bands or hoops used to secure wooden staves shall not be required to be bonded as required in 680.26.
Exception No. 2: A listed self-contained spa or hot tub that meets all of the following conditions shall not be required to have
equipotential bonding of perimeter surfaces installed as required in 680.26(B)(2):
(1) Is installed in accordance with manufacturer’s instructions on or above grade.
(2) The vertical measurement from all permanent perimeter surfaces within 30 horizontal inches (76 cm) of the spa to the top
rim of the spa is greater than 28 inches (71 cm).
Informational Note: For further information regarding the grounding and bonding requirements for self-contained spas and hot
tubs, see ANSI/UL 1563 – 2009, Standard for Electric Spas, Equipment Assemblies, and Associated Equipment.
Issue Date: March 1, 2011
Effective Date: March 21, 2011

sbrn33 · 04-13-2012, 10:10 AM

This is why they call them portable hot tubs. Those codes are meant for in-ground concrete ones like you see at a resort.

HARRY304E · 04-13-2012, 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sbrn33

This is why they call them portable hot tubs. Those codes are meant for in-ground concrete ones like you see at a resort.

Who said anything about portable?

Cletis · 04-13-2012, 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HARRY304E

Who said anything about portable?

Its portable

**Dennis Alwon** · 04-13-2012, 12:54 PM

The code does not make a distinction between portable or non portable with Hot Tubs. Also the amendment only applies if you are under the 2011.

The amendment does not apply if certain conditions are met however there is nothing specifically about in ground concrete tubs. You can have an above ground tub and it may still need the epb.

BBQ · 04-13-2012, 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amish Electrician

The latest NEC calls for an equipontential grid around the tub .. BUT ... the NFPA has issues an ammendment that removes this requirement for such installations. Here it is:

NFPA 70®
National Electrical Code®
2011 Edition
Reference: 680.42(B)
TIA 11-1
(SC 11-3-10/TIA Log #1005)
Pursuant to Section 5 of the NFPA Regulations Governing Committee Projects, the National Fire Protection Association has issued
the following Tentative Interim Amendment to NFPA 70®, National Electrical Code®, 2011 edition. The TIA was processed by Panel
17 and the National Electrical Code Technical Correlating Committee, and was issued by the Standards Council on March 1, 2011,
with an effective date of March 21, 2011.

A Tentative Interim Amendment is tentative because it has not been processed through the entire standards-making procedures. It is
interim because it is effective only between editions of the standard. A TIA automatically becomes a proposal of the proponent for the
next edition of the standard; as such, it then is subject to all of the procedures of the standards-making process.

1. Revise 680.42(B) to read as follows:
680.42(B) Bonding. Bonding by metal-to-metal mounting on a common frame or base shall be permitted.
Exception No. 1: The metal bands or hoops used to secure wooden staves shall not be required to be bonded as required in 680.26.
Exception No. 2: A listed self-contained spa or hot tub that meets all of the following conditions shall not be required to have
equipotential bonding of perimeter surfaces installed as required in 680.26(B)(2):
(1) Is installed in accordance with manufacturer’s instructions on or above grade.
(2) The vertical measurement from all permanent perimeter surfaces within 30 horizontal inches (76 cm) of the spa to the top
rim of the spa is greater than 28 inches (71 cm).
Informational Note: For further information regarding the grounding and bonding requirements for self-contained spas and hot
tubs, see ANSI/UL 1563 – 2009, Standard for Electric Spas, Equipment Assemblies, and Associated Equipment.
Issue Date: March 1, 2011
Effective Date: March 21, 2011

And the TIA only applies if your local area has accepted or adopted it.

**Dennis Alwon** · 04-13-2012, 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BBQ

And the TIA only applies if your local area has accepted or adopted it.

My understanding was that the TIA was part of the accepted code and if your area didn't want it then they would have to amend the amendment. Not sure but that was my understanding. What did MA do?

BBQ · 04-13-2012, 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dennis Alwon

My understanding was that the TIA was part of the accepted code and if your area didn't want it then they would have to amend the amendment. Not sure but that was my understanding.

You may be right but that sure sounds wrong.

In other words a private organization is changing a law without any government involvement.

Pete m. · 04-13-2012, 02:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dennis Alwon

My understanding was that the TIA was part of the accepted code and if your area didn't want it then they would have to amend the amendment. Not sure but that was my understanding. What did MA do?

At least here in Ohio TIA's are only applicable if adopted by the Board of Building Standards.

Pete

Amish Electrician · 04-13-2012, 03:03 PM

WHatever the details ...it would have been irresponsible to answer the OP with "the code" without also bringing the TIA to his attention.

Otherwise, in general .... if any AHJ feels comfortable saying to a judge "Well, yes, your Honor, this code provision I want to apply makes no sense, indeed, is so silly even the code publisher has admitted so and has issued a correction ... but I want it enforced anyway" .... be my guest.

Observant readers will note that only rarely do I post an exact code quote. This is not because I am not able to do so; this was one of the rare circumstances where the actual source is necessary to answer the question.

Now ... who's going to man-up and say: "Gee, Amish, thanks for postiing that TIA. I had no idea there was one?"

BBQ · 04-13-2012, 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amish Electrician

WHatever the details ...it would have been irresponsible to answer the OP with "the code" without also bringing the TIA to his attention.

I agree.

It is also irreponsible to bring up the TIA without mentioning it may not be binding.

Quote:

Now ... who's going to man-up and say: "Gee, Amish, thanks for postiing that TIA. I had no idea there was one?"

Gee, Amish, thanks for postiing that TIA, I did know there was one but thanks for posting it for others.

19kilosparky984 · 04-13-2012, 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fredman

He's on crack. Plain and simple.

Your on crack.

That's been code for a while now.

Cletis · 04-13-2012, 04:54 PM

So, let's say "hypothetically" speaking i'm in a state that is under the 2011. I'll just throw out ohio as an example.

So, assuming this is a portable listed hot tub. It DOES or DOES NOT need an EPB ???

**Dennis Alwon** · 04-13-2012, 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amish Electrician

Now ... who's going to man-up and say: "Gee, Amish, thanks for postiing that TIA. I had no idea there was one?"

I'll man up and say I already knew about it.

I will also say that it is an important piece of info to lay out there as many are not aware of it.

**Dennis Alwon** · 04-13-2012, 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BBQ

You may be right but that sure sounds wrong.

In other words a private organization is changing a law without any government involvement.

Well perhaps it depends on when an area accepts the 2011 NEC. If the 2011 has been amended and the state then chooses to adopt it then I believe they would be accepting the amendment and would need to amend that if they don't want it. Again I am not certain. It would also hold true that if a state already adopted the 2011 and then they amended it then it makes sense that the amendment would have to be voted on.

Fredman · 04-13-2012, 07:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 19kilosparky984

Your on crack.

That's been code for a while now.

No crack. Just tryin to learn assgas.

chicken steve · 04-13-2012, 07:37 PM

Old news here

parts 2 & 3 of 680 are predicated on part 1, pools

to my understanding they up'd the ante' on bonding

and all hot tubs follow suit

~CS~