MDShunk

I'd probably say, "That looks great. Let's not make this a habit. Get back to work".

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-Marc, ABC, XYZ, PhD, 1-2-3

-Someday, I'll wear pajamas in the day time.

heel600

It looks to me that only 2 grounds at a time are twisted together. Likely the same 2 ground wires that come from the same RX connector. If I were doing a panel change, I wouldn't see any need to untwist the ground wires.

Probably takes him 5 seconds a pair to twist them. a dozen pairs?

I don't do it, but 60 seconds of 'wasted' time? I can afford that.

I do a lot of pools, and some hot tubs. Did a hot tub for a lady, and I spent a couple of extra minutes making my PVC look really neat (perfect offsets, etc). She was so 'impressed' I got several jobs from her.

Those extra 5 minutes cost next to nothing. Advertizing to get 2 jobs would have cost more.

cdnelectrician

Yes neatness pays off...I would rather stay a few extra minutes that I'm not getting paid for to make a job look neat than throw it in and be out by 3PM. On the twisting of the grounds thing....totally unnecessary, just my opinion.

MDShunk

My business sense says that a good installation is a combination of neatness and speed. If the installation is ugly, it's wrong. If the installation took too long, it's wrong. If it's reasonably neat and it got done in a reasonable amount of time, it's perfect. More often than not, these "glass front" type panels took way longer than the installer will ever admit to. Admittedly, in an environment where make-work rules and other similar featherbed practices are normal, everything probably will be ultra-neat. Those of use who compete at a different level need to find a happy medium.

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-Marc, ABC, XYZ, PhD, 1-2-3

-Someday, I'll wear pajamas in the day time.

480sparky

Did she care about how your grounds were made up, or whether they were twisted together? Seriously, how many HOs actually see the insides of our panels?

"60 seconds" of wasted time is just that.... wasted time. Any you don't make money on resi by counting dollars, you make money in resi counting seconds.

I don't mind making them neat, but there's an extreme here that just isn't worth the time. Would you spend another 10 minutes making sure all your recep boxes are within 1/64th of an inch in height? Or taking all the twists out of the NM that's run through the holes in the studs? I know some guys who will run all their 14s into one side of the panel, and all the 12s on the other. Why? I don't know, he's on third, and I don't give a darn.

I recall a builder who would drill the holes for his electrician. He would walk around to each stud with a tape measure, making a mark 20" AFF on the face edge of the studs. Then he would go around again with his square and transfer the mark to the side of the stud. Then... he would go back around with his tape measure and mark the center of each stud along the line that's at 20". Then, and only then, would he start drill holes. His rational: If Sparky had an absolute straight shot through the studs, he'd use less wire, and therefore be cheaper. Fine, Sparky uses $1 less NM, and Bob the Builder spends a day marking the studs.

It's like spending time waxing the car you're going to drive in the demolition derby this Saturday night. The laws of diminishing returns will come into play here.

__________________
All responses based on the 2008 National Rat Code.

heel600

When I built my mother's house, I marked very stud at 24" above bottom plate. That was where the holes were drilled. Everything I did was picture perfect.

Yes it was my mother's house. No I never did that before or since. But it only took an hour or so to have a helper go around with a 24" piece of wood and a pencil.

In the homes I wire, just by force of habit, all holes are within an inch or two of the same height. Look neat.

Ok I'm rambling....

If he wires every panel that way, and does on average of one panel every week or two, I'm sure it takes him only a minute or two longer than an 'average' job would.

Will the customer ever see inside the panel? sometimes.

I guess if you're wiring for a big time builder, the chance of the customer seeing in the panel, or even wanting you to come back to upgrade anything is slim.

If you're doing a service upgrade for a homeowner, and they are around and see your work, and how neat and 'professional' it looks (assuming the rest of the job is the same), you'll have a customer for life.

One more way to look at it:

You say it's a wasted 15 minutes that you're paying for. At $160 / hr, that's only $40 cost. What if you charged $40 / job (large jobs only) more? So instead of a service for $2200, you charged, $2240?

MDShunk

Wasted time is wasted time. If the person who is wasting time is an employee, he is stealing from his boss. Simple as that.

__________________
-Marc, ABC, XYZ, PhD, 1-2-3

-Someday, I'll wear pajamas in the day time.

JohnJ0906

You are comparing "apples to oranges" Very few HOs will see the insides of their electrical panel, but they will see that PVC every day.

Neatness in exposed work vs. excessive neatness in concealed work - 2 different things, IMO.

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John from Baltimore
"One day at a Time"
All responses based on the '08 NEC
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frenchelectrican

Unforetally yes it is true in few European countries do have plexiglass cover on it I know Germany do have it on some load centre and here in France not too often and UK kinda spotty as well { I will let UK sparky answer that question }

Most useally are mounted on the DIN rail with plastic box { very few use steel box like what you useally have in North American verison is }

As soon I get done working on one resdentail I will try to get a photo what French resdential breaker box look like.

Merci,Marc

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randomkiller

I agree, I like to be neat but there is no way I'm twisting grounds.

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CFL

This isn't exactly true. If the boss gives you X amount of time to complete the job and you hustle in order to do a neater job then that's the opposite of stealing, that's giving. I have always been a neat freak and I am consistently faster in completing my jobs than my coworkers. I choose not to cut corners and I have to pay for it (physically).

Personally, I hate it when people twist their wires together. It does look cool, but I have had to untwist them many times and those wires will never look good again.

r_merc

I'm bucking the trend here I like the twisted wires. OK Mark I agree with you as well.... So let me put it this way.... If I'm trimming out the panel. I get my cordless and twist. If my employees are trimming out then it's straight in.

Rick

ralph

If you own the company, then you do the panel your way. To each his own.

TOOL_5150

As far as grounds go, I would just rather leave them in a j-box [if present] and just run 1 properly sized EGC to the panel.

~Matt

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JohnJ0906

Of course, no one has mentioned the neatest way of all.... just snip off those pesky bare wires and recycle them.

__________________
John from Baltimore
"One day at a Time"
All responses based on the '08 NEC
It's not my fault, it's not my problem, I'm not your solution.

Yillis

Some panels we're going right now:









That's just the electrical room in one House:

MDShunk

Yillis.... that's a Canadian installation, no?

__________________
-Marc, ABC, XYZ, PhD, 1-2-3

-Someday, I'll wear pajamas in the day time.

NolaTigaBait

wow, what size service is that?

Yillis

Canadian yes, 800 amps.

Speedy Petey

That dude must work for AIG.