Power Saver - Electrician Talk - Professional Electrical Contractors Forum

iamcarbman · 01-15-2009, 03:13 PM

I have a customer that is interested in a device called a POWER SAVER. I have done some research but would like more information in order to either recommend or to discourage use of this type of a device. Thanks!!

electricista · 01-15-2009, 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iamcarbman

I have a customer that is interested in a device called a POWER SAVER. I have done some research but would like more information in order to either recommend or to discourage use of this type of a device. Thanks!!

Don't waste your money. It is pretty much a scam.

It may actual save money in commercial applications where there are large motor.

electricista · 01-15-2009, 03:21 PM

Here is a comment by Michael Bluejay

Quote:

Here's why I don't think this saves any appreciable amount of electricity:

A utility company employee writes:

I work for a utility in Ontario and we have tested these devices in our shop, and these devices are a scam for residential billed customers. They do correct the power factor but since residential customers are only billed on kw.h they do nothing to reduce a customer bill. That is loads use watts, and residential customers are billed on watts, so it doesn't matter what the PF is. Our tests not only proved this but that these devices actually use a small amount energy, which ironically drives the customer bill up.
PF only comes into play with larger commercial customers who are billed on Peak Demand. The theory is that customers use Watts and the utiltiy supplies VA, so for the same load (watts), the lower the PF the more the utility must supply in VA. To combat this the utility bills is the higher of Watts or 90%*VA, thus the customer is charged more for a low (bad) PF, thus they can reduce their demand charge by raising (or fixing) their PF. PF is lowered by inductive loads, thus adding capacitance raises it. These little expensive devices are just capacitors.
I read the white papers on these devices, and they did not report anything that was untrue, but the advertising is very misleading. Some of the technical people at our work were fooled, until it was explained and our results revealed.
Only for motors and transformers. The reduction isn't for every device in your home, only things with motors, transformers, and fluorescents which need reactive power.
Modern appliances have power-correction built in. Ancient appliances were wasteful, but modern appliances (like fridges) already have this same kind of power-correction technology built-in. For those devices, there are no more savings to be had.
People from two different utility companies wrote in to tell me that these devices don't work for home users. The person from Ameren in Illinois says, "Our residential meters don't measure reactive power. You can't save money by plugging in a reactive power correction device." And Greg from Canada writes, "I work for a utility in Ontario and we have tested these devices in our shop, and these devices are a scam for residential billed customers. They do correct the power factor but since residential customers are only billed on kw.h they do nothing to reduce a customer bill." See his more complete comments at right.
I've never measured any savings when testing an actual unit. No manufacturer has ever sent me a unit to test (could it be they know the product would fail?), and the ones I purchased myself or which were sent to me by readers failed to save any energy.

TheElectricalGuru · 01-19-2009, 12:18 PM

I have a question on these things possibly......We know that in a Residential environment the POCO charges by KWH and the meter does spin faster in theory the more wattage that is being used...we can all see this when you go to a meter and someone turns on the strip heat....

Now......granted I know the NEC Code but I am no Electrical Engineer so I have a question.....since consumption is consumption and V x A x PF = W......if something slowed down the meter physically, and I mean to the point you can actually SEE it slow down. Would it not actually save electricity to the consumer?

I am not convinced it would ACTUALLY show a KWH meter down regardless of anything they did, I can see where it would slow down a KVA Meter but not KWH...am I missing something here?

I am a bit nieve at how the poco actually does all this but if you slow down the rotation of the meter itself would it reduce the costs to the consumer? But I am not an electrical engineer and yet even at that I find it hard to believe a capacity trying to bring as much of the load into unity or to a purly resistive load would help slow anything down...I can see how it might help the power company to get rid of a lag but they dont want a lead also.....this gets very confusing to convey and I thank "Charlie b" over on holts site for helping me break this down.

I understand how they charge and the math behind it....just puzzled because I have seen bills where consumers say they saved money but again could it simply be the plazebo effect ( I might have spelled that wrong...lol )

I like to understand its concepts better. If the meter reader is actually looking ( on the old ones ) for the numbers based on revolutions and readings, would not slowing down the revolutions save the consumer money ( Yes, it would )but even if we are talking slightly and if so is it a scam or just a realistic expectation of savings that need to be conveyed.

DHC · 01-31-2009, 07:53 PM

I believe these things to be a scam as well. I have done some research on one of these called a powerworx e3. There is a contractor in my area talking about these for residential and light commercial customers and I was curious. From what I gather they are nothing more than a external mounted panel surge unit that they want to charge $700 for. The website talks about swags and swells from the utility being corrected and noise filtration and protection from spikes all your average panel surge unit will do for much less. As far as PF correction they may have added some capicitance to these units but not enough to do much in my mind and if you have energy star appliances nothing is needed trying to correct it anyway; with an out of the box unit genericly built for every application you could create a leading PF which is still a power waste. All your switchgear companies have power factor correction capability but nothing for resi apps because the need is nonexistant. I actually had a long detailed discussion with Eaton Corp on this subject and they provided a boat load of info debunking these devices. I can attempt to forward this info if requested (I say attempt because these PDF's are very large). As far as your customer is concerned I would push them into some hard proven ways to save with panel surge, CFL's, programmable HVAC thermostats set to raise and lower home temp to times inhabited, in wall occupancy sensors, and so on. There are so many other forms of green living products and pratices out there that you can give hard facts and instances that aren't secretive on there operation that can protect your credibility as an electrician and professional.

donfta · 02-11-2009, 04:20 PM

if you dont know nothing about the product you should sut up, I been installing power savers and not the powerworx product and have nothing but praises and thanks from all my customers, Do some research and use the right meters and you will see,so you people who want the power saver dont listen to people who dont have them

John · 02-11-2009, 04:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by donfta

if you dont know nothing about the product you should sut up, I been installing power savers and not the powerworx product and have nothing but praises and thanks from all my customers, Do some research and use the right meters and you will see,so you people who want the power saver dont listen to people who dont have them

Hey Buddy...Do you want to buy the Brooklyn Bridge? Cheep.

They are totaly worthless for residential 240/120 services.

Ever Look inside one? well here's your chance.....

Attachment 1010

Attachment 1011

And there is a reason it is "Sealed For your Protection".

Because they don't want you to see what is inside.

Carry On!

Celtic · 02-11-2009, 04:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John

Ever Look inside one? well here's your chance.....

Attachment 1010

Attachment 1011

And there is a reason it is "Sealed For your Protection".

Because they don't want you to see what is inside.

Carry On!

You just voided the warranty there Einstein

donfta · 02-11-2009, 04:57 PM

Good for you you open the box,well see you never installed a real power saver,that one your showed me is not the one I installed, you want to buy somthing buy a book on how to power electricty,can tell you just a kid who thinks he all that......guess all my customers are liars hahaha installed over 30 of them know and not one unhappy customer,good luck working with you junk saver

John · 02-11-2009, 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celtic

You just voided the warranty there Einstein

You should of said......

Attachment 1012

John · 02-11-2009, 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by donfta

Good for you you open the box,well see you never installed a real power saver,that one your showed me is not the one I installed, you want to buy somthing buy a book on how to power electricty,can tell you just a kid who thinks he all that......guess all my customers are liars hahaha installed over 30 of them know and not one unhappy customer,good luck working with you junk saver

Ignorance is Bliss.
Especially if you tell them that it silently works while they sleep.

And I quote: "Opening the unit without prior permission from EcoTrust Energy will void its warranty coverage. Contact EcoTrust Energy at 1.800.xxx.xxxxx if you have any questions."

Wonder why? Hiding something? UL™ ® approved?

Celtic · 02-11-2009, 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by donfta

.... installed over 30 of them know and not one unhappy customer....

...maybe they just stopped calling you.

donfta · 02-11-2009, 05:31 PM

you just dont get it people like you are ignorant,you never installed one you never had one but you know there no good,can tell your not in your own business,still have your mommy wipping your ass I bet.....And I still have the same people I do work for call me all the time when they need work done,so go get yourself a education and move out of mommys house

donfta · 02-11-2009, 05:36 PM

Have you ever installed a windmill for powering a home? Bet your going to tell me there junk too

donfta · 02-11-2009, 05:37 PM

theres motors in washing machines and dryers, well pumps ect

electricista · 02-11-2009, 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by donfta

you just dont get it people like you are ignorant,you never installed one you never had one but you know there no good,can tell your not in your own business,still have your mommy wipping your ass I bet.....And I still have the same people I do work for call me all the time when they need work done,so go get yourself a education and move out of mommys house

Well I see you are trying very hard to make friends here. Calling people names will get you nowhere. If you and your customers are happy fine but there have been many studies and news stories on this issue and they all seem to say the same-- it is not worth it for residential use. You believe what you want but quit the bad mouthing.

donfta · 02-11-2009, 06:05 PM

ok im sorry to upset some of yous, but a washer, dryer,well pump ,jucuzzi, air coditioner all work well with this and if you guys dont think so well ok

Celtic · 02-11-2009, 06:20 PM

Don...explain to us ignorant folk just how this thing works.

Now is your chance to shine and prove yourself and the product.

walkerj · 02-11-2009, 07:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by donfta

you just dont get it people like you are ignorant,you never installed one you never had one but you know there no good,can tell your not in your own business,still have your mommy wipping your ass I bet.....And I still have the same people I do work for call me all the time when they need work done,so go get yourself a education and move out of mommys house

cdnelectrician · 02-11-2009, 07:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by donfta

you just dont get it people like you are ignorant,you never installed one you never had one but you know there no good,can tell your not in your own business,still have your mommy wipping your ass I bet.....And I still have the same people I do work for call me all the time when they need work done,so go get yourself a education and move out of mommys house

Seems like you are the one that needs an education dude.