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Old 06-07-2009, 01:14 PM   #21
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Well in this case the panel is flush mounted inside a finished wall. So therefore a but replacement would be ideal so as to not have to tear up any drywall.
Good call.

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Old 06-07-2009, 01:17 PM   #22
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The only "value" the customer will ever see will be a shiny new can and a new panel cover, so I'd recommend chaning the whole panel for the perception of value.
I understand that very well, and I predicted you were going to say something along those lines.

It just seems that every time I encounter a buss burnout, getting it back up and running as quickly as possible is of the essence, so a quick "gut change" helps tremendously towards that end.
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Old 06-07-2009, 01:52 PM   #23
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Change the guts out, and charge them the same anyway! You can justify it quite simply (at least to your own conscience). If you change the whole panel, the customer is paying for the labor and the material. If you change just the guts, the customer is paying for labor, material, and your valuable knowledge of where to source such a beast..

And if you want to kill a little time, take the grounds and neutrals off and tidy everything up. Except for wrestling the new can into place, panel make-up seems to be the biggest consumer of time anyway.

Bottom line: clean up the innards, swap the guts, put some new breakers in, put on a new panel cover, and hand them a bill for the same as a panel change out.
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Old 06-07-2009, 03:54 PM   #24
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That's exactly what I'll do, assuming that they call me back to have anything else done. These people surprisingly enough didn't seem that concerned about the danger of the whole situation. Usually, especially people that don't know about electricity are scared to death about much smaller things than this so I don't know about these folks. I told them that the panel's probably ok for a few months. So I'll see if they really do save up some money and call me back for the changeout. I know I can just change the guts and bill them the same. They won't know the difference. I just need to find out if I can even do it. I guess I just need to buy the new panel and take it with me and hope that it fits and if it doesn't then I'll just changeout the whole damn can!
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Old 06-07-2009, 04:22 PM   #25
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T&B does not make these or any panels any more as I have said they have dumped the line making panels, meter, mains, and meter, panels.

So finding replacement parts, will be a major problem, changing panel guts with something that is not UL listed to be in this panel is setting up a for a law suit. not only next to imposable to get it to line up.

Cutler Hammer to the rescue, Cutler Hammer has a "UL listed" adjustable guts replacement kit, to fit these panels, it comes with all kinds of brackets with holes in it to adjust to about any panel configuration. and they can be ordered with copper busses I think.
We have used them when we run into an embedded panel in concrete.

Here is a link to the CH retrofit site:
http://www.eaton.com/EatonCom/Market...ards/index.htm
you will need to check out the "Retrofit Interior Kit-
The Lincoin Flex Center" Then find a Cutler Hammer supply house, also I found getteing the right numbers from Cuttler Hammer first works the best by calling 800-330-6479.

Also to note , almost all manufactures of panelboards offer them in both copper busses and alu, if you ask for it , they might have to order it, but they are availble, I find them even at Menards?

So if you are installing one in a high moisture area, try to use copper.

Last edited by hurk27; 06-07-2009 at 04:43 PM.
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Old 06-07-2009, 08:05 PM   #26
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T&B does not make these or any panels any more as I have said they have dumped the line making panels, meter, mains, and meter, panels.

So finding replacement parts, will be a major problem, changing panel guts with something that is not UL listed to be in this panel is setting up a for a law suit. not only next to imposable to get it to line up.

Cutler Hammer to the rescue, Cutler Hammer has a "UL listed" adjustable guts replacement kit, to fit these panels, it comes with all kinds of brackets with holes in it to adjust to about any panel configuration. and they can be ordered with copper busses I think.
We have used them when we run into an embedded panel in concrete.

Here is a link to the CH retrofit site:
http://www.eaton.com/EatonCom/Market...ards/index.htm
you will need to check out the "Retrofit Interior Kit-
The Lincoin Flex Center" Then find a Cutler Hammer supply house, also I found getteing the right numbers from Cuttler Hammer first works the best by calling 800-330-6479.

Also to note , almost all manufactures of panelboards offer them in both copper busses and alu, if you ask for it , they might have to order it, but they are availble, I find them even at Menards?

So if you are installing one in a high moisture area, try to use copper.
So you don't think that if I just buy a Cutler Hammer BR panel and take out the guts that they will line up and fit? I was thinking (hoping) they would.

And as for the high moisture area, you think copper is better? I would think that aluminum is better for moisture. Seems like copper corrodes alot in high moisture areas. Maybe I'm wrong though considering most plumbing is copper and that is definitely 100% moisture inside of those pipes.
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Old 06-07-2009, 08:26 PM   #27
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I think its similar to the aluminum vs copper wire debate. In my long (sarcasm) career, I have found that the ones in moist basements tend to be the ones that corrode and die like that. Sometimes the damn screws in the neutral and ground bars can be just as tough to remove. I can't remember whether the BR can be had in a copper buss. Siemens for sure and maybe QO. Those retrofit ones look cool, but I'm sure I'd be waiting for weeks to get one.

If you go the gut change route let us know the cost and how it went. Never tried that.

Last edited by nrp3; 06-07-2009 at 08:30 PM.
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Old 06-07-2009, 08:48 PM   #28
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So you don't think that if I just buy a Cutler Hammer BR panel and take out the guts that they will line up and fit? I was thinking (hoping) they would.
I'm thinking they will fit. And you like you say, if they don't , you can just swap out the whole panel.
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Old 06-07-2009, 08:59 PM   #29
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So you don't think that if I just buy a Cutler Hammer BR panel and take out the guts that they will line up and fit? I was thinking (hoping) they would.

And as for the high moisture area, you think copper is better? I would think that aluminum is better for moisture. Seems like copper corrodes allot in high moisture areas. Maybe I'm wrong though considering most plumbing is copper and that is definitely 100% moisture inside of those pipes.
Not likely, as they are designed for a specific tub, you must think in three dimensions, width, depth, and hight. it is the depth that is the hardest because if too deep the breakers will sit too far back, and if to shallow, the cover will stick out. that why the CH retrofit systems are great, as they are adjustable for all 3 dimensions. and come with a new cover to fit the new setup. so there is no guess work. and when we ordered two to fit two 40 circuit 200 amp ITE panels we had them in 4 days from our supplier.


As for copper being more resistant to moisture that aluminum, well like you said, water doesn't seem to corrode it as bad as aluminum. sure there are some alloys of aluminum that can withstand the weather better than even copper, look at antenna grade aluminum, but it has an anodized finish that protects it, but for the most part almost all aluminum used in electrical conduction is a pure form of aluminum and very subject to corrosion. the oxygen in water, caused the surface of the metal to turn into aluminum oxide, which is not very conductive, which results in heating causing further breaking down of the connection, and even more heating till it just burns up.
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Old 06-07-2009, 09:02 PM   #30
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Not likely, as they are designed for a specific tub, you must think in three dimensions, width, depth, and hight. it is the depth that is the hardest because if too deep the breakers will sit too far back, and if to shallow, the cover will stick out. that why the CH retrofit systems are great,
That's all well and good, but you have to remember that T&B panels were identical to the Wetsinghouse/Challenger stuff that was available at the time. There was no discernible difference between the two. Hopefully Garth will be able to use that to his advantage.

On a related note, I know for a fact that a Murray interior will work in a T&B panel, but the cover fits kinda funky.
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Old 06-07-2009, 09:04 PM   #31
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Not likely, as they are designed for a specific tub, you must think in three dimensions, width, depth, and hight. it is the depth that is the hardest because if too deep the breakers will sit too far back, and if to shallow, the cover will stick out. that why the CH retrofit systems are great, as they are adjustable for all 3 dimensions. and come with a new cover to fit the new setup. so there is no guess work. and when we ordered two to fit two 40 circuit 200 amp ITE panels we had them in 4 days from our supplier.


As for copper being more resistant to moisture that aluminum, well like you said, water doesn't seem to corrode it as bad as aluminum. sure there are some alloys of aluminum that can withstand the weather better than even copper, look at antenna grade aluminum, but it has an anodized finish that protects it, but for the most part almost all aluminum used in electrical conduction is a pure form of aluminum and very subject to corrosion. the oxygen in water, caused the surface of the metal to turn into aluminum oxide, which is not very conductive, which results in heating causing further breaking down of the connection, and even more heating till it just burns up.
Okay. But just for the record, this particular panel isn't in a damp location. It's a finished basement and I didn't detect any mooisture at all. So I seriously doubt that moisture had anything to do with this problem.
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Old 06-07-2009, 10:53 PM   #32
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Basements are not always classified as a damp location, and you might be right as far as moisture being the culprit, but In most of the failures I have seen like this, it was, just that moisture isn't there when you are, doesn't make it so. take the problem when someone doesn't seal the incoming pipe for the service conductors, they come in from out in the cold and cool the panel causing moisture to form on the panel, inside and out, this is one reason for these types of failures, in a laundry room. the moisture isn't there if no laundry is being done but when the washer is being used on the highest water temp, I'll bet it's a little steamy in there, again add the above and you have even more moisture now laden with caustic detergents. this is why it's important to seal the incoming pipe when it comes inside from an outside environment. and the fact the code requires it.

As what Peter has said, you might get lucky and find a panel that match's this one, but all in all it wont be a UL listed fix, and could have implications down the road if something were to go wrong and cause a fire.
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Old 06-07-2009, 10:55 PM   #33
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As what Peter has said, you might get lucky and find a panel that match's this one, but all in all it wont be a UL listed fix, and could have implications down the road if something were to go wrong and cause a fire.
You are 10-thousand percent wrong about that. Panelboards and panelboard cabinets are listed separately. There is no requirement a certain panelboard cabinet be used with a certain panelboard.
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Old 06-07-2009, 11:00 PM   #34
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You are 10-thousand percent wrong about that. Panelboards and panelboard cabinets are listed separately. There is no requirement a certain panelboard cabinet be used with a certain panelboard.

I can't speak to the issue of listings, other than the fact that I don't care about them. I'll gladly insert different panelboards into different cabinets and not worry about the sky falling or fires or lawsuits.

But, you're saying it's ok to do that anyway.
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Old 06-07-2009, 11:25 PM   #35
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I can't speak to the issue of listings, other than the fact that I don't care about them. I'll gladly insert different panelboards into different cabinets and not worry about the sky falling or fires or lawsuits.

But, you're saying it's ok to do that anyway.
Yeah, I once had to replace the guts in an ancient panel that was embedded in concrete and piped in IMC. I measured the length and bought a Siemens that was close, but the can depth of the original was alot deeper than what I had bought. Anyway, my angle grinder, tin snips, and super human metal working skills made short work of the problem.

Oh, and the Siemens cover was actually wider than the embedded can, so the panel cover is actually attached to blue plastic masonry anchors drilled into the wall
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Old 06-08-2009, 12:00 AM   #36
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Yeah, I once had to replace the guts in an ancient panel that was embedded in concrete and piped in IMC. I measured the length and bought a Siemens that was close, but the can depth of the original was alot deeper than what I had bought. Anyway, my angle grinder, tin snips, and super human metal working skills made short work of the problem.

Oh, and the Siemens cover was actually wider than the embedded can, so the panel cover is actually attached to blue plastic masonry anchors drilled into the wall

Get'er Done

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Old 01-29-2010, 08:34 AM   #37
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This is not just common to T&B but to any stab type breaker panel with aluminum buss stabs, located in a high moisture areas like laundry room, damp basements, outdoors, Etc..., very common with ITE's also. we use only copper buss panels in these areas, and if outdoors it's a must. of course a little dielectric grease helps too. we dumped T&B panels and service equipment because of failures like this and there meter packs were the worst, we still have about 10 less than a year old meter packs on some town homes that keep loosing the buss connection, which requires the POCO to de energize them before we can try to fix them, and many times you cant because the screws holding the busses together will strip out, so lately we been just changing them out.

About a year after we dumped T&B they also dumped the service line so they are not being made any more. for good reason.
Hurk - on your comment about ITE - have you only seen in when panels are in somewhat damp conditions?
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Old 01-29-2010, 08:56 AM   #38
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I'm wanting to know what could have caused this to happen to only a few of the breakers. I can only think that it must be from a weak connection and the arcing caused it to constantly heat up and cool down, heat up and then cool down every time the dryer was on until it finally had enough and burned off.






Back the OP's part of the question - could something of caused this to happen short term, or when this occurs, does it imply something that's been degrading over a long duration?

Now my question - was this triggered by one of the breakers going bad and then this caused issues with the surrounding breakers? When I've seen this, it's usually limited to on breaker - but sometimes impact that breaker opposite, as it's plugged in to the same stab.
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Old 01-29-2010, 09:07 AM   #39
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I've never seen T&B panels, but I've see this happen on ITE with plug on breakers to alum. bussing. This was commercial with lots of conduits into the panel, so I ordered an identical panel except with copper bussing. Changing out the bussing only was a snap. Never got another call for problems on that site. Actually I've done 2 or 3 of these and the problems went away.
P.S. getting a new panel was cheaper than ordering the bussing separately.
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Old 01-31-2010, 01:07 PM   #40
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Hurk - on your comment about ITE - have you only seen in when panels are in somewhat damp conditions?

The majority of them was in areas of high moisture, but I must say this, ITE breakers somtimes have a miss-alined clips (where it clips on the buss stab) and can be bent over if forced on the buss, this has also caused the above problem, but for the most part, I have found moisture+ AL busses being the cause, as I pointed out above.

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