sokoservices

I have never done this, but how do you convert a old house with two prongs to three prongs? I have heard you would just tie the gound to the back of the box if its metal and the bx goes back to the panel. Also what about just using gfci's? Please help me understand this practice.

Thanks
Soko

oldtimer

Not trying to be ignorant.... but are you an Electrician?

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sokoservices

Yes. but normally do service work or new construction. Never had to do this before. I am actually a Newbie Master in Virginia..... Can't know it all......

mcclary's electrical

The Master's test in VA is very tough and you cannot pass it without knowing the NEC very well. You should already know where to look in the code to find this. A master's not supposed to know everything, but he should darn well know where to find the answer.

sokoservices

I figured it was easier to ask the question as there is sometimes more then one right answer to geting something done. By the way, the code book doesnt tell you how to physically do anything.

Art 90
90.1 (A) The purpose of this CODE is the practical safeguarding of persons and property from hazards arising from the use of electricity.

The code is just provisions that are considered necessary for safety.....

Its not intended as a design specification or an instruction manual.

sokoservices

So I would take it as 406.3 (D) (3) is where the options for replacement of non grounding type receptacles is.

jwjrw

(2) Non–Grounding-Type Receptacles. Where attachment
to an equipment grounding conductor does not exist in the
receptacle enclosure, the installation shall comply with
(D)(2)(a), (D)(2)(b), or (D)(2)(c).
(a) A non–grounding-type receptacle(s) shall be permitted
to be replaced with another non–grounding-type receptacle(
s).
(b) A non–grounding-type receptacle(s) shall be permitted
to be replaced with a ground-fault circuit interruptertype
of receptacle(s). These receptacles shall be marked
“No Equipment Ground.” An equipment grounding conductor
shall not be connected from the ground-fault circuitinterrupter-
type receptacle to any outlet supplied from the
ground-fault circuit-interrupter receptacle.
(c) A non–grounding-type receptacle(s) shall be permitted
to be replaced with a grounding-type receptacle(s)
where supplied through a ground-fault circuit interrupter.
Grounding-type receptacles supplied through the groundfault
circuit interrupter shall be marked “GFCI Protected”
and “No Equipment Ground.” An equipment grounding
conductor shall not be connected between the groundingtype
receptacles.

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calboy

Rather then going to the code book, this is a question that all my apprentices shall and do know.

1. Non grounded receptacles are usually found in homes around the pre 60's wired in a non metallic conduit or cloth sheathing and do not carry a ground wire. they are also found in a baco light box product thus called non grounded.

In this case you have only two viable option in which you can change the receptacle.

1a. In order to change out the receptacles in a non grounded system to a grounded outlet system without making the false impression of a grounded system is to trace the circuit out and find the first outlet on the branch circuit and line/load the outlet to the proper amperage GFCI and mark all receptacles that have been changed out to a three prong with the appropriate GFCI protected sticker.
2a. Install a ground Wire to each outlet and bond to a cold water line (copper pipe) using a proper bonding clamp.
3a. If you are lucky, the home in which the two prong non grounded receptacles are installed in is currently ran in flex and steel boxes and then you would use either a Self grounding receptacle or a Bonding wire (green) from the steel box to the receptacle.

Now as I have said at the beginning this is something that a Third year apprentice should know and one that I require all my electricians to know in my service and maintenance part of the company to know, heck this is like knowing you ABC's.

jrannis

Most all of the older houses around here were piped so this isnt really an issue for us. We couldn't use BX here at all.
We do find some "cloth covered" NMSC here and there but its rare.

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jwjrw

You can also use a gfi breaker. Also you have to use 2 stickers. Gfci protected and no equipment ground




I usually use this option. You can connect to ANY point on the GES not just the cold waterpipe.

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The more I learn the less I seem to know......

calboy

This is true but GFCI circuit breaker is more of a cost to the customer then a GFCI receptacle which you can buy the now for around 4 bucks. We are not required to place a no equipment ground sticker around these parts.

We are required by local inspectors to connect to a cold water pipe and must be accessible.

jwjrw

I was just pointing out a receptacle was not the only way like you said. More expensive it can be. But it also can be cheaper if they have the old small metal boxes. The NEC requires both stickers. What code cycle are you on?

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The more I learn the less I seem to know......

mcclary's electrical

The NEC requires the stickers. It seems Calboy is an ANarchist electrician when it comes to following rules.

calboy

sokoservices

Well got another house that needs to be done... This time its got the BX with a metal box . I am going to put grounding type receptacles in with a pig tail to the back of the box and call it a day. How much do people charge per receptacle to do this? Receptacle, wire and plate?

Big John

Because these are ungrounded wired in "BX" I'm assuming this is a pretty old installation?

If this really is old "BX" with the cloth-insulated conductors, then it probably does not have a bonding jumper in the armor, so the armor is not suitable for use as an equipment ground.

It needs to be honest-to-goodness modern "armored cable" for your solution to be safe and compliant.

-John

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sokoservices

I will be confirming before i do any work. But if the customer says to give them a price to do the work how do you price it with out taking anything apart? I am under the impression that its the BX with cloth.

Shockdoc

The devil called , he wants this thread back, dead and buried with soul roasting.

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All these liberal laws has turned me into a right wingnut..

sokoservices

Have another one on me!!!

Dennis Alwon

I only do those jobs T & M. But remember you don't want to do this if the BX does not have that wire running inside it.

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