Frasbee

I'm sure there are plenty of cases of something like this, but I just found it amusing in it's irony.

One of the electricians we picked up during the summer, said he has been working residential for about 20 years.

And I have had no reason to doubt that.

The past couple days I had been runnin' pipe in what's more like an obstacle course, with no clear cut way to run or support the 1/2'', 3/4'', 1'', 1 1/4'' pipe. So often I'd be up there doing it one way, and he would be below me suggesting I do it another way. He's not the foreman, but he seemed so adamant about instructing me, I would start to second guess my method and just do it his way, sometimes scrapping 15 minutes of work just to do it the way he wanted it.

After lunch today, the foreman asked me to go help this guy run the rest of the 3/4'' fire alarm pipe, in a different room. A relief because there are virtually no obstacles, should just be mostly straights and 90's.

First thing that tipped me off was when he asked me what the take off was for the 3/4''. So I told him 6 inches. And then he asked what the 1/2'' was, I told him 5 inches.

Now I took my measurements for a simple 90 to the right, and 90 down into the box. No more than one stick. He came along and starting telling me I should do it a different way, but I pointed to the pipe and told him I already had it bent. It fit in beautifully.

When it came time to run the pipe coming back out of the box, we realized it would need either an offset, or a kick. We decided an offset would look better. So he marked the pipe right after the stand off strap and laid the pipe on the ground and picked up the bender.

And stared at the pipe.

Then put the pipe in the bender.

Then took the pipe out of the bender and put it back down on the floor again and stared at it.

I didn't want to embarrass him, so I spoke as if I was thinking out loud:

"Well, I guess the easiest would be to do two 30's, y'know since we'll only be multiplying by two...so...10 1/2'' times 2 equals...21."

...

"Soooo, we'll just measure 21 inches from the first mark, then bend it at 30 degrees."

I placed my level on the end and he slowly began to bend, then stopped to ask when he'll reach 30. I pointed to the top angled level and told him to use it like any other level, get the bubble in the middle.

The offset came out great, but we must have mismeasured. I made sure to get a hold of the pipe first and make the adjustments. I got my confidence back after that, and aren't so worried about his suggestions anymore. It's just funny because this guy I know could wire an entire house, (I couldn't), but when it came to bend an offset, he just lost.

TheRick

Your story is not at all uncommon, being an electrician can mean many different things. You can specialize in Residential, Commercial or Industrial, and within each of those you can specialize even further. Your residential electrician with 20 years experience can not bend pipe, and you with your commercial experience can not wire a house, but put either of you in an industrial setting and ask you to troubleshoot some motor controls, or use PLC logic and you would both likely be lost.

I have 12 years industrial experience, and 5 years residential...I haven't done much commercial, but have bent a lot of pipe in my industrial work. The more varied experience you can gain the better off you will be, especially in these hard economic times, anything you can do to make yourself more valuable to an employer will help you out.

We had a guy come into our Industrial plant a few years back...15 years of experience in the union doing construction, the guy made some beutiful conduit runs, but if you put a meter in his hands and asked him to troubleshoot something it was painful to watch. Needless to say he did not last long!

__________________
Rick Boudreau
TASK FORCE SAFE INSPECTION TEAM LEADER
Tal Afar, Iraq
"fool-proof systems do not take into account the ingenuity of fools"

George Stolz

I have 4 years resi experience, and over 2 years commercial.

I caught some hell for being a journeyman unable to bend pipe when I started commercial - I learned how to bend pipe.

I've seen resi guys turn commercial, as I did, since I've gained confidence in commercial. I've also gotten to watch commercial guys flounder in resi. In my experience, being around the commercial guy struggling through resi is a more frustrating thing to endure than the resi guy learning commercial.

IMO, the commercial electrician is often more accustomed to having the engineer do all their thinking for them, and are ill-equipped to residential, where the electrician must make design decisions on their own. The commercial electrician often has an overabundance of pride, and frequently they feel resi is beneath them, which leads them to do lackluster work. (Edit: ...and not care about relevant codes.)

The resi guy frequently wants to grow and expand, which is why they came to commercial - and as such, are more prone to want to learn, IMO.

But I am also a pretty opinionated guy.

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-George

Frasbee

I'm still trying to get a hang of the commercial work I do right now.

I do work with a guy who has done a lot of industrial, he seems know how to trouble shoot, local codes, run pipe with ease and the like.

He's been encouraging me to kind of, think outside the box. Or as George and him put it "engineer" things myself.

It sounds like residential is an experience in itself. Only thing is, I'd rather stay out of residential work down here in New Orleans. I hate crawling under houses.

480sparky

Why would you assume a resi wireman should automatically know how to bend pipe? Is suppose he should know how to wire lighting contactors, size motor heaters and troubleshoot VFDs?

A person who has spent their entire career doing commercial and industrial may not even know how to properly strip the sheath off NM, either.

We're all ignorant, just in different areas.

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SmithBuilt

My guys give me grief all the time. Since I do not do much of the field work now I have forgotten how to quickly do some things. Including bending conduit. Don't get me wrong I can do it, it just takes a while for the brain cells to engage.

Wait until you start estimating. Talk about too many things to remember or even know in the first place.

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Tim

"Everybody has to believe in something.....I believe I'll have another drink."
-W.C. Fields

Frasbee

The only reason why I assumed anything was because I saw him working with pipe a few months ago (don't know what the results of that were), and as I said, he was generally quick to try amend my own runs his way, so I yes, I figured he knew what he was talking about.

Jeez, it's not like I looked at the guy and assumed he knew how to bend.

kapakahi

Some examination boards require you to bend pipe. Town of Hempstead, Nassau County, NY. requires you to make some simple 90s an pffset a kick to their specs. No big deal but you really ought to know it. In instructing some of my apprentices I told them once, "go out and buy a bundle of 1/2" EMT and make bends." It was a lot cheaper then, like $13.00/100' but they sure got to learn to bend pipe. Later we graduated them to 1¼", 1½", & 2" and then on to bigger sizes.

shunt trip

The electrical industry is vast in knowledge and techniques. Most Electricians only move to better paying jobs. First resi, then commercial, then industrial, We Follow the money, once we have the skills. Takes 30+ years for most JW to do it all with ease. But very few go to less money

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Dave from Spokane
Check out the new conduit reamer
www.d-reamer.com

ce2two

If you have person with at 5 years in the trade(residential) , knows the code well , can TEACH a man how to wire a house in one week, I KNOW I CAN ,I NOW HAVE THIRTY YEARS IN COMM,RESI,AND IND , To me it is not how many years you have been doing it ,it is what you learned in those 30 years... the person learning needs to take some serious notes , not ask the same question over and over...comm and IND. are a different matter for sure , TROUBLE SHOOTING IS ANOTHER STORY? SHORT TERM MEMORY IS CRITICAL...

manchestersparky

It never ceases to amaze me how one group of electricians think they are superior to another group of electricians. The residential guys think they are far more superior in code,design,speed, and general knowledge. The the commercial /industrial group feel they are far more superior in code, design, knowledge. Both feel their "side" of the trade works harder.

I is my opinion that the residential guys do work faster. The commercial/indust. group can deal with heavier materials and more complex buildings.

BOTH groups have to deal with code. I have come across electricians who don't know **** about the code, and have met electricians who seem to know the code- "chapter and verse". I feel that there is an equal balance between resid. & commercial electricans who know the code.

Both groups are pretty much equal in general

Mastertorturer

Removed as to not offend egos.

MDShunk

Just calm it down a couple notches. I'm not going to let any 2nd year call anyone or anything dumb. Come on one of my jobs and I know I can make you feel pretty dumb in a hurry, although that wouldn't be my goal. The better part of wisdom is in realizing that you'll always be dumb at some stuff.

You really need to get out more. "Pipe and wire" is a widely used term for a conduit system, and "bending pipe" is readily accepted trade terminology.

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Peter D

You're a sadistic man.

Celtic

In your vast experience in "all things electrical" you should be acutely aware that there are different means and methods used in each of those 3 areas....oh wait....you have 23 months

In case no one has told you this yet:
I have underwear that has been in the trade longer than you.

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TOOL_5150

And as my mom has told me "Ignorance is different than stupid; you cant fix stupid."

I know a few specific things about commercial, but I am ignorant to a lot of it since I just do residential work. I can bend pipe by eye though. I learned how to bend pipe a long time ago.

~Matt

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I would rather beg for forgiveness then beg for permission.

TheRick

Wow just imagine how "smart" you will be when you get some real experience under your belt...sorry but with less than 2 years as an apprentice, you need to lose your superiority complex.

There are many areas one can specialize in and still call themselves an "electrician." Just because one is an electrician does not mean they are all knowing about everything in every part of the trade, nor do they need to be.

Yes we as electricians should all have the basic knowledge and skills to perform a variety of tasks, but to expect someone to be an expert in all things electrical is crazy. As far as code knowledge, knowing how to use the book, and apply it to the real world is mopre important than memorizing references.

And yes it is conduit...but if you had some real time in the trade you would now that "pipe" is very commonly used to refer to conduit, you will learn things like that IF you last...

__________________
Rick Boudreau
TASK FORCE SAFE INSPECTION TEAM LEADER
Tal Afar, Iraq
"fool-proof systems do not take into account the ingenuity of fools"

slowforthecones

In California, if your any kind of electrician res, com, agricultural, indust.. piping 101 is required knowledge..doesn't have to be clean but you should know it. I showed a guy who claimed to be a JW the door without a ride home from the jobsite when he wasn't able to bend a kick offset.

George Stolz

Glad I wasn't working for you the first day I arrived on a commercial job as a journeyman - but then again, I was driving my own car, so it wouldn't have been so bad.

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-George

slowforthecones

Well if someone claims to be a jw and when i tell them to just do a few stub ups 90s... and maybe a quick kick... i come back 2 hours later and 5 scrap 10 ft sections of emt.. sorry guy but i dont think it's working out.