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Old 01-09-2017, 10:16 PM   #1
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Default Box fill -interpretation of 12-3034 (2) (b)

EDIT: Sorry - title should have read (2) (c)
I was rereading this rule tonight - I had up to this point taken it to mean that for each flush device box fill was reduced by two conductors. However, on rereading I thought there seems to be some ambiguity in the wording - the way the code reads seems as if you could, say, in a three gang box, count three devices as only totalling two conductors worth of fill - in sum, not for each.

To put it another way, the way it's worded seems to indicate that it's the presence of devices that counts, not the number.

Here's the code:

12-3034 Maximum number of conductors in a box
(2) Except as specified in Subrule (3) and subject to the details given in Subrule (1), boxes of the nominal dimensions given in Table 23 shall not contain more insulated conductors of a given size than permitted by the Table, and the number of conductors shall be reduced for each of the following conditions as applicable:
(a) one conductor if the box contains one or more fixture studs or hickeys;(b) one conductor for every pair of wire connectors with insulating caps (no deduction for one wire connector, deduct one conductor for 2- or 3-wire connectors, two conductors for 4- or 5-wire connectors, etc.);
(c) two conductors if the box contains one or more flush devices mounted on a single strap.

Any thoughts?

Last edited by Mugs; 01-09-2017 at 10:23 PM. Reason: Amended title
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Old 01-09-2017, 10:30 PM   #2
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Originally Posted by Mugs View Post
(c) two conductors if the box contains one or more flush devices mounted on a single strap.

Any thoughts?
The wording isn't very clear...as usual.
I take it to mean that, for example, each switch counts as two wires
unless it's one of those oddball things with 2 switches on one strap.
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Old 01-10-2017, 08:20 AM   #3
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Wording is clear enough to me but I am an old fart.
(c) two conductors if the box contains one or more flush devices mounted on a single strap.
One or more devices would cover the gangable boxes and multi switch boxes. The two conductor deduction would cover the whole box, either single, double, etc.
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Old 01-10-2017, 04:06 PM   #4
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The way I read it is a device that takes up a whole gang is a 2 wire deduction. Whether that device is a singlex receptacle, a duplex receptacle, a single switch, or like P&L mentioned one of those two or three switch on one strap type deals. In other words, if you had a two gang with something
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Old 01-10-2017, 04:07 PM   #5
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*sorry my computer farted


as I was saying, with something mounted in each gang, that would be 4 wires deducted. 3 gangs with devices in each, 6 wires. etc.
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Old 01-11-2017, 12:05 AM   #6
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No way
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Old 01-11-2017, 12:33 AM   #7
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Old 01-11-2017, 04:08 PM   #8
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The wording isn't very clear...as usual.
I take it to mean that, for example, each switch counts as two wires
unless it's one of those oddball things with 2 switches on one strap.
P&L
I read it as any device attached to one strap = 2 wires. including multiple switches on ONE strap.
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Old 01-11-2017, 04:12 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mugs View Post
EDIT: Sorry - title should have read (2) (c)
I was rereading this rule tonight - I had up to this point taken it to mean that for each flush device box fill was reduced by two conductors. However, on rereading I thought there seems to be some ambiguity in the wording - the way the code reads seems as if you could, say, in a three gang box, count three devices as only totalling two conductors worth of fill - in sum, not for each.

To put it another way, the way it's worded seems to indicate that it's the presence of devices that counts, not the number.

Here's the code:

12-3034 Maximum number of conductors in a box
(2) Except as specified in Subrule (3) and subject to the details given in Subrule (1), boxes of the nominal dimensions given in Table 23 shall not contain more insulated conductors of a given size than permitted by the Table, and the number of conductors shall be reduced for each of the following conditions as applicable:
(a) one conductor if the box contains one or more fixture studs or hickeys;(b) one conductor for every pair of wire connectors with insulating caps (no deduction for one wire connector, deduct one conductor for 2- or 3-wire connectors, two conductors for 4- or 5-wire connectors, etc.);
(c) two conductors if the box contains one or more flush devices mounted on a single strap.

Any thoughts?
Pretty clear to me. Table 23 doesn't have dimensions for gangable boxes? They are talking about one box at a time.

Same as if we gang two boxes, the fill is now double. but not indicated on table 23.
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Old 01-11-2017, 04:20 PM   #10
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I read it as any device attached to one strap = 2 wires. including multiple switches on ONE strap.
Agreed. If my wording wasn't clear, that's what I meant.
So like B-nabs said, 3 gang box with 3 switches is a 6 wire deduction.
P&L
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Old 01-11-2017, 04:20 PM   #11
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Code handbook says 2 conductors for any one or more devices on a strap. to me that means 3 devices in a 3 gang box =2 wires. which makes no sense.
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Old 01-11-2017, 04:56 PM   #12
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Here is one device on one strap (each one counts as 2 wires)

[IMG][/IMG]



Here is two devices on one strap(also counts as 2 wires)

[IMG][/IMG]


Basically we count 2 wires for every one of these metal straps, regardless of how many devices are attached to it.

[IMG][/IMG]


edit: unless it is deeper than 2.54 cm of course
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Old 01-11-2017, 05:01 PM   #13
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I agree that makes more sense but the wording doesn't communicate that.
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Old 01-11-2017, 05:06 PM   #14
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I agree that makes more sense but the wording doesn't communicate that.
Sure it does?
" Code handbook says 2 conductors for any one or more devices on a strap"

OR


2 conductors for every metal strap that holds devices, better?



What do you think they mean by "a strap?"
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Old 01-11-2017, 05:25 PM   #15
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I agree that makes more sense but the wording doesn't communicate that.
It's simple: Start by knowing what the code actually requires. Then,
read each rule over and over until you find some way that the rule
can mean what you already know it's supposed to mean.
P&L
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Old 01-24-2017, 10:57 PM   #16
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It's simple: Start by knowing what the code actually requires. Then,
read each rule over and over until you find some way that the rule
can mean what you already know it's supposed to mean.
P&L

Lol sometimes that is so true.
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