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Old 03-20-2017, 05:43 PM   #1
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Default can we use wire connector inside the panel?

for examples, there are 3 wires going inside the panels, they are the same circuits, means they all go to the one breaker.

so can we use one wire connector to put them together, then come out only one pigtail wire, and connect it to the circuit breaker?

do we allow to do that by code?( I check the code book, can find the page talking about that, if anybody find it, please give the page number to me)
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Old 03-20-2017, 05:46 PM   #2
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I moved this to the Canadian Forum. Not a problem in the US and I suspect it is not an issue there
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Old 03-20-2017, 06:01 PM   #3
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There isn't really a rule. 6-212 sort of talks about it but Section 6 is about services. Draw your own conclusions:

6-212 Wiring space in enclosures
(1) Enclosures for circuit breakers and externally operated switches shall not be used as junction boxes, troughs, or raceways for conductors feeding through or tapping off to other apparatus.

In Alberta, there was an unwritten rule (maybe it was written, Dave would know) that splices weren't allowed. That has been relaxed now to allow extending a wire to meet the breaker as long as you don't create a big, ugly mess of splices.

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Old 03-20-2017, 06:38 PM   #4
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for examples, there are 3 wires going inside the panels, they are the same circuits, means they all go to the one breaker.

so can we use one wire connector to put them together, then come out only one pigtail wire, and connect it to the circuit breaker?

do we allow to do that by code?( I check the code book, can find the page talking about that, if anybody find it, please give the page number to me)
This begs the question, why would you homerun the same circuit three times into a panel, instead of joining them to each other in the traditional manner, (daisy chain) or, in a junction box located near the panel?
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Old 03-20-2017, 06:43 PM   #5
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This begs the question, why would you homerun the same circuit three times into a panel, instead of joining them to each other in the traditional manner, (daisy chain) or, in a junction box located near the panel?
I know, I usually put a big JB on top of the panel, so I can make the connection, but I am taking somebody else job, and this guy put no JB for the panel

that is why I ask this question
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Old 03-20-2017, 06:47 PM   #6
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This begs the question, why would you homerun the same circuit three times into a panel, instead of joining them to each other in the traditional manner, (daisy chain) or, in a junction box located near the panel?
If you were doing this by design, I'd consider it hack. But, sometimes
it's the best way to deal with an existing situation.
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Old 03-20-2017, 06:51 PM   #7
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This begs the question, why would you homerun the same circuit three times into a panel, instead of joining them to each other in the traditional manner, (daisy chain) or, in a junction box located near the panel?
You are talking to people who install small brand new panels with tandem breakers in new work.
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Old 03-20-2017, 07:03 PM   #8
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I know, I usually put a big JB on top of the panel, so I can make the connection, but I am taking somebody else job, and this guy put no JB for the panel

that is why I ask this question
Why ??
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Old 03-20-2017, 09:21 PM   #9
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Why ??
In commercial, I always put a big JB above a new panel. Either in the t-bar, or if there is none, on the wall above the panel. And I run as many conduits as I think may be required to fill that panel, even if I'm only installing a few circuits in it. It makes for a neater, easier to work on installation down the line, and helps out the next guy. I know I'm always glad when I have to work on an existing panel and there is such an arrangement installed.
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Old 03-20-2017, 09:38 PM   #10
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In commercial, I always put a big JB above a new panel. Either in the t-bar, or if there is none, on the wall above the panel. And I run as many conduits as I think may be required to fill that panel, even if I'm only installing a few circuits in it. It makes for a neater, easier to work on installation down the line, and helps out the next guy. I know I'm always glad when I have to work on an existing panel and there is such an arrangement installed.
I'm honestly not seeing it.

If I am the next guy to come in and add something, how is it easier for me to knockout a box (probably have to drill my own?) then run my cable thru the box and conduit, vs. just banging out a KO in the panel and installing the cable?

I've installed boxes (usually 4x4" troughs) above panels like you mentioned when all the cables are short. But if the cables reach, I figure it's cleaner and easier for everyone to just enter the panel.
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Old 03-20-2017, 09:42 PM   #11
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I'm honestly not seeing it.

If I am the next guy to come in and add something, how is it easier for me to knockout a box (probably have to drill my own?) then run my cable thru the box and conduit, vs. just banging out a KO in the panel and installing the cable?

I've installed boxes (usually 4x4" troughs) above panels like you mentioned when all the cables are short. But if the cables reach, I figure it's cleaner and easier for everyone to just enter the panel.
Then you and I differ.
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Old 03-20-2017, 09:44 PM   #12
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Then you and I differ.
Which is fine, but I am still curious about the question I asked you.
If I am the next guy to come in and add something, how is it easier for me to knockout a box (probably have to drill my own?) then run my cable thru the box and conduit, vs. just banging out a KO in the panel and installing the cable?
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Old 03-20-2017, 09:52 PM   #13
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I'm honestly not seeing it.

If I am the next guy to come in and add something, how is it easier for me to knockout a box (probably have to drill my own?) then run my cable thru the box and conduit, vs. just banging out a KO in the panel and installing the cable?

I've installed boxes (usually 4x4" troughs) above panels like you mentioned when all the cables are short. But if the cables reach, I figure it's cleaner and easier for everyone to just enter the panel.
His style is COMMON in California commercial work.

The panels are surface mounted in an E-room ... with twin risers to a gutter// trough// big can or two sitting above the height of the T-grid. These are over-sized 2" EMT puppies... so that subsequent homeruns are easy peasy to pull in... even if the panel is heated up. The excess materials expense is a joke versus the labor savings.

From the over-head twin cans MC is roped thither and yon above the grid. Indeed, other than extraordinary circuits (rare) -- the entire job is MC everywhere.

The last 120 inches consists of #10 stranded, on color, going into the panel... odds to the left, evens to the right... or #10-4 MC... stripped way back with a Rotosplit.

The foreman builds the E-room, the cable monkeys rope the MC.

For competitive reasons, it's unacceptable for naked MC runs to fly down the walls to the panels.

Plan B is to sheath the last leg of such MC drops in wrap around steel -- by harvesting panel cans -- or some such.

{ I had one PM insist on this scheme. It was brutally ugly and labor intensive. He was soon canned. ( Too many other strew-ups. ) But he was a very pretty boy. }
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Old 03-20-2017, 10:00 PM   #14
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for examples, there are 3 wires going inside the panels, they are the same circuits, means they all go to the one breaker.

so can we use one wire connector to put them together, then come out only one pigtail wire, and connect it to the circuit breaker?

do we allow to do that by code?( I check the code book, can find the page talking about that, if anybody find it, please give the page number to me)
There actually was a time when such junctions were prohibited. The panels were so TIGHT that there was no room. Such insanely tight panels can now only be found in ancient homes // museums.

As the NEMA players increased the size of panel cans, the rules were relaxed -- and left up to the determination of the AHJ. The key thing was that enough (free) space had to be in the panel to be well above that required for said junctions if they'd been performed in a standard j-box.

The result is that commercial sized cans have plenty of space for a fair amount of wire nutted connections. Residential panels have only limited capacity. If folks have gotten there ahead of you -- and the space is crammed -- then you're going to get shot down for making matters worse.

But all recent stuff ( last 35 years ) is almost certainly large enough to make the matter moot. AHJs just don't go ape over a few wire nuts in a panel these days.

But, the Code leaves it up to their discretion, even now.
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Old 03-20-2017, 10:07 PM   #15
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Which is fine, but I am still curious about the question I asked you.
If I am the next guy to come in and add something, how is it easier for me to knockout a box (probably have to drill my own?) then run my cable thru the box and conduit, vs. just banging out a KO in the panel and installing the cable?
-If the panel is flush mounted, entering into a JB above accessible ceiling is obviously easier than fishing down and prying out a knockout.
-Around here, if it is surface mounted, chances are it's a sprinklered space, meaning the panel has a drip hood, and anything entering the top needs to be raintight. So either EMT with compression fittings and sealing rings (which is what I use to get up to my JB), or TECK with a wet connector (which is more expensive and ugly).
-I also do it because I think it looks better. Obviously if someone comes in later and barfs a cable into the top of the panel there's nothing I can do about it, but at least I can say I tried.

Telsa, usually I like to pipe into the field, and only use AC either for fixture drops or to drop into the walls to hit devices. There is the odd time we do everything from the big box in AC, but I prefer to plan a pipe grid and keep the AC mess to a minimum.
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Old 03-20-2017, 10:11 PM   #16
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In commercial, I always put a big JB above a new panel. Either in the t-bar, or if there is none, on the wall above the panel. And I run as many conduits as I think may be required to fill that panel, even if I'm only installing a few circuits in it. It makes for a neater, easier to work on installation down the line, and helps out the next guy. I know I'm always glad when I have to work on an existing panel and there is such an arrangement installed.



I've been a fan of the emt risers up to a trough or can above the drop ceiling install for a long time.
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Old 03-20-2017, 10:29 PM   #17
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for examples, there are 3 wires going inside the panels, they are the same circuits, means they all go to the one breaker.

so can we use one wire connector to put them together, then come out only one pigtail wire, and connect it to the circuit breaker?

do we allow to do that by code?( I check the code book, can find the page talking about that, if anybody find it, please give the page number to me)
Yes.
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Old 03-21-2017, 07:16 AM   #18
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Which is fine, but I am still curious about the question I asked you.
If I am the next guy to come in and add something, how is it easier for me to knockout a box (probably have to drill my own?) then run my cable thru the box and conduit, vs. just banging out a KO in the panel and installing the cable?
Let's say you're adding a bunch of cubicles. If the future add is a pipe rather than a cable, I am sure you can see the advantage, you have at least one less 90 to deal with, you can hit the j box on three sides so more likely two 90s you don't have to deal with, in an area that's probably already crowded and difficult to work in.

I also like the idea that if you have to do maintenance in the future it's going to be quicker and easier to open that can than it is to open that panel. Depending on the setup you might be able to swap some circuits around without working in a live panel, quicker and safer and without making a ****house of the panel. If you have one of the betties sneaking in a space heater and tripping the circuit, you can open the can and leave a clamp on there and leave it without leaving the cover off the panel.
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Old 03-21-2017, 03:48 PM   #19
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In commercial, I always put a big JB above a new panel. Either in the t-bar, or if there is none, on the wall above the panel. And I run as many conduits as I think may be required to fill that panel, even if I'm only installing a few circuits in it. It makes for a neater, easier to work on installation down the line, and helps out the next guy. I know I'm always glad when I have to work on an existing panel and there is such an arrangement installed.
Oh it's you.... grrrrrrr. ;-) your j box is usually in my way. I wish you'd just run what you need and leave space for the next guy to do what they need.

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Old 03-21-2017, 09:24 PM   #20
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In commercial, I always put a big JB above a new panel. Either in the t-bar, or if there is none, on the wall above the panel. And I run as many conduits as I think may be required to fill that panel, even if I'm only installing a few circuits in it. It makes for a neater, easier to work on installation down the line, and helps out the next guy. I know I'm always glad when I have to work on an existing panel and there is such an arrangement installed.
I don't do commercial, so I was not aware ... I still wonder why the OP has 3 home runs on a circuit thou ?? Is that common in commercial ?
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