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Old 01-08-2017, 10:29 PM   #41
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Most LED dimmers call for a neutral wire also, but then there is this:
https://community.smartthings.com/t/...-neutral/20699
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Old 01-09-2017, 10:03 AM   #42
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Way too much electronics nowadays. I would rather go back in time and sit at the kitchen table playing cards and listen to the radio that is plugged into this:
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Old 01-09-2017, 12:18 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Byte View Post
Way too much electronics nowadays. I would rather go back in time and sit at the kitchen table playing cards and listen to the radio that is plugged into this:
We still have radios and cards. We even kept our table.
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Old 01-09-2017, 06:45 PM   #44
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At the risk of repeating someone else's answer, the neutral will be needed should a regular switch be replaced with an LED - equipped motion sensor or dimmer. I learned the hard way.
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Old 01-09-2017, 06:56 PM   #45
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General contractors really don't care if there is a neutral in the switch boxes it increases the cost to them.
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Old 01-09-2017, 10:03 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by power View Post
Admittedly, I know little about residential as we NEVER touch it.

Anyways, I was told by another electrician that a neutral is needed in the switch boxes when your installing 3-way switches in them! I never heard of this. Depending on how you route the cable, I thought a 14/3 NMD is ok for a 3-way switch, that is, two travelers and the remaining hot or light feed.

Is this true?
This just came up at work recently. I'm curious - is there a reason to think that 4-028 doesn't apply to this question?

it says:
4-028 Installation of neutral conductor
Where a service, feeder, or branch circuit requires a neutral conductor, it shall be installed
(a) in all separately enclosed switches and circuit breakers;
(b) in all centres of distribution associated with the circuit;
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Old 01-09-2017, 11:08 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mugs View Post
This just came up at work recently. I'm curious - is there a reason to think that 4-028 doesn't apply to this question?

it says:
4-028 Installation of neutral conductor
Where a service, feeder, or branch circuit requires a neutral conductor, it shall be installed
(a) in all separately enclosed switches and circuit breakers;
(b) in all centres of distribution associated with the circuit;
I think what they really mean here is disconnect, not regular wall switch.
Picture a 3ph 4wire disconnect.
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Old 01-09-2017, 11:21 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by arthur View Post
Most LED dimmers call for a neutral wire also, but then there is this:
https://community.smartthings.com/t/...-neutral/20699
Really? I put them in everyday and very few need a noodle.
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Old 01-10-2017, 02:11 AM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Byte View Post
Way too much electronics nowadays. I would rather go back in time and sit at the kitchen table playing cards and listen to the radio that is plugged into this:
With a NIC of Byte... okay...
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Old 01-10-2017, 12:43 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mugs View Post
This just came up at work recently. I'm curious - is there a reason to think that 4-028 doesn't apply to this question?

it says:
4-028 Installation of neutral conductor
Where a service, feeder, or branch circuit requires a neutral conductor, it shall be installed
(a) in all separately enclosed switches and circuit breakers;
(b) in all centres of distribution associated with the circuit;
Key phrase, " requires a neutral conductor ".

In many cases the neutral is not required, ( in the switch box for example ), but with all the new products on the market, it may be required.

Be sure to carefully read the manufacturers' instructions.

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Old 01-10-2017, 09:58 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Borgi View Post
Key phrase, " requires a neutral conductor ".

In many cases the neutral is not required, ( in the switch box for example ), but with all the new products on the market, it may be required.

Be sure to carefully read the manufacturers' instructions.

Borgi
For the sake of being disagreeable, I would say that the key phrase is at the start, I think. "where a service, feeder, or branch circuit requires a neutral conductor." I would venture to say that covers pretty much any 120V cct. Nowhere is the requirement for the neutral at a location predicated on the device being used at that location.
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Old 01-10-2017, 10:20 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mugs View Post
For the sake of being disagreeable, I would say that the key phrase is at the start, I think. "where a service, feeder, or branch circuit requires a neutral conductor." I would venture to say that covers pretty much any 120V cct. Nowhere is the requirement for the neutral at a location predicated on the device being used at that location.
I am open to a discussion.

Have a look at the definition for " branch circuit ", and " outlet " first, then get back to us.

In my apprentice days in residential, I always fed the switch first, so a neutral was always present at the switch box. But, later in life, I didn't care as much.

Now, it may be back to " feed the switch ".

The CEC gives us the option.

So far!

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Old 01-10-2017, 10:53 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mugs View Post
For the sake of being disagreeable, I would say that the key phrase is at the start, I think. "where a service, feeder, or branch circuit requires a neutral conductor." I would venture to say that covers pretty much any 120V cct. Nowhere is the requirement for the neutral at a location predicated on the device being used at that location.
Here's another way of looking at it: The practice of not having neutrals
at all switches is common and has been so forever. If a neutral were
required, wouldn't some inspector somewhere have mentioned it by now?
Defects for this sort of thing would be common knowledge on this forum
and elsewhere.
Also, 4-028 is not new.
And finally, have you checked the CE code handbook?
P&L
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Old 01-10-2017, 11:58 PM   #54
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4-028 Installation of neutral conductor
Where a service, feeder, or branch circuit requires a neutral conductor, it shall be installed
(a) in all separately enclosed switches and circuit breakers;
(b) in all centres of distribution associated with the circuit;
(c) with all connections to the neutral being made in the enclosures and centres; and
(d) in such a manner that any neutral conductor can be disconnected without disconnecting any other neutral
conductor.
Section 0
Branch circuit — that portion of the wiring installation between the final overcurrent device protecting the circuit and the outlet(s).
Literary it reads that a neutral is required in every box of the branch circuit...does it not?
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Old 01-11-2017, 09:15 AM   #55
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Literary it reads that a neutral is required in every box of the branch circuit...does it not?
"If required" ... Think about hwt's , A/C , .... 240V loads
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Old 01-11-2017, 09:32 AM   #56
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"If required" ... Think about hwt's , A/C , .... 240V loads
I was thinking of a branch circuit powering lights. The switch box is in the branch circuit so does the code require a neutral in that box? That would mean running a 3-wire as a switch leg.
Very confusing. 2-wire switchlegs are all over the place.
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Old 01-11-2017, 09:38 AM   #57
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so does the code require a neutral in that box?
"if required"

Not required on a switch loop.

I don't like switch loops ... but that's the code.

If someone changes to a fancy programmable dimmer ... then now they need the noodle ... someone has to install one
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Old 01-11-2017, 09:40 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by emtnut View Post
"if required"

Not required on a switch loop.

I don't like switch loops ... but that's the code.

If someone changes to a fancy programmable dimmer ... then now they need the noodle ... someone has to install one
Do you know where I can find the rule? Thanks for your help.
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Old 01-11-2017, 09:44 AM   #59
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Do you know where I can find the rule? Thanks for your help.
4-028 !! It says 'where required'
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Old 01-11-2017, 10:03 AM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by power View Post
Admittedly, I know little about residential as we NEVER touch it.

Anyways, I was told by another electrician that a neutral is needed in the switch boxes when your installing 3-way switches in them! I never heard of this. Depending on how you route the cable, I thought a 14/3 NMD is ok for a 3-way switch, that is, two travelers and the remaining hot or light feed.

Is this true?
I finally found the answer you need from Appendix B:
Neutral
By definition, a neutral conductor of a circuit requires at least three conductors in that circuit. However, in the trade, the term “neutral conductor” is commonly applied to the conductor of a 2-wire circuit that is connected to a conductor grounded at the supply end. Care should therefore be taken in the use of this term when applying
the Code.
4-026 is written for three or four wire circuits, not two wire circuits.
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